[pigpenz]

what are the parameters for the spade suit in the responses for
using lebensol with GIB. I could see maybe pushing this way at imps
but not at matcphoints

---

would partner not raise to three on max values and fit and
likewise do the same over invitational by way of 2NT.

[Stephen Tu]

The only parameters should be 5 cd spades and game forcing values. GIB is just unlucky here to find you with all Ks, no aces in the rounds, and the bad split on top of it. Luckily the opps are cold for game so you found a nice undoubled sacrifice .

I don't see why you are picking nits with the suit quality. Your hand could be slightly different and it's cold. Even improve the spades to AQJT9, it's still down vs. your actual hand due to your ace deficiency. I don't think we want to wait for it to have AQJT9 before allowing it to bid 3s!

If you are going to criticize, then maybe it's a little aggressive to GF, rather than invite, because of overall high card strength (not that strong a hand if no spade fit), but the suit quality isn't really the problem with the hand. But it's not wildly out of the ballpark like it can be on other bidding sequences.

[AyunuS]

I think it was a pretty good bid, you were just very unlucky. With shortness in what are likely both of west's suits, north thinks you will have a good fit and a good help suit, which you do. Even with the offside aces if there were, with good splits it still would have been made.

[pigpenz]

i dont really have a problem with the bid at imps but matchpoints I think we could bid
it a little bit better. what I am curious about if we take away the Q♠ will it now
make an invitational bid?

in the past we have seen hands where the auction proceeds the same and GIB hold 6 ♠
doesnt make a bid.

yes, you are right it seems there are an extremely high number of contracts where the opps
have game and we tend to be playing the contract going down.

added later
++++++++++++
GIB is unilaterally deciding that we belong in game.
what happens on hands where NT doesnt have spades?

running through dealmaster pro then running deep finesse
gave west hand hearts/clubs or hearts/diamonds

then ran 3 different set ups for NT bidder

2 card♠ support min or max
3NT south 21%
4♠ north 28 %

3 card♠ min
3NT south 15%
4♠ north 45%

3 card ♠ max
3NT south 29 %
4♠ north 59%

so dont we really need south to partake in this deciscion?
if there was no interference are we gonna make 2NT invitational bid over 2♠?

there is a big difference between invitational and forcing....3NT is almost never going to be
a viable option with 7hcp opp 15-17.

[barmar]

As you can see from the explanation, it's going by total points, not HCP, so it's counting its short suits. 10 TP opposite a 1NT opener is enough for game.

With only a 5-card suit, it's required to run simulations before bidding 3♠. I haven't looked at the simulated hands, but I suspect it determined that if opener doesn't have ♠ support they'll end up in a reasonable 4♦.

[pigpenz]

barmar, on 2012-May-10, 13:31, said:

As you can see from the explanation, it's going by total points, not HCP, so it's counting its short suits. 10 TP opposite a 1NT opener is enough for game.

With only a 5-card suit, it's required to run simulations before bidding 3♠. I haven't looked at the simulated hands, but I suspect it determined that if opener doesn't have ♠ support they'll end up in a reasonable 4♦.

i would think it would be pretty hard to put the brakes on at 4♦
if North ended up taking all those bids to bring up that situation.

[Leo LaSota]

We cannot expect GIB to be programmed to incorporate many "expert standard" agreements into the bidding methods. Just be glad that GIB at least plays Lebensohl at all in this auction. Many experts would use the 3 diamond bid in this auction to show 5+ spades, INV+, and therefore if E/W remain silent, the auction would go 1nt-2h-3D-pass-3s- all pass. Opener would reject the invite with soft, aceless 16 count without aces and KQ hearts in front of heart bidder.