[MrAce]

---

Team match, expert partner and expert opponents. (nothing unusual in 1 ♣ opening.

What do you predict to happen from here and of course what would you bid ?

Letme know if you dislike the previous 2♦ bid.

[Phil]

6♦. It may make, it might be a silly contract or it might make 7. However, the auction has a lot of momentum and I expect my opponents to bid 6 a lot of the time and I'd rather defend 6♠ than 5♠.

[the_clown]

5♦. My partners often have only 3 trumps and a stiff ♥ so I dont like my chances in 6♦ especially if they lead a trump. If p doubles 5♠ I am passing. If he passes I am bidding 6.

Expect partner to have something like AJx(x) x QJx KQJxx(x)

[lalldonn]

5♦ seems like plenty

[phil_20686]

Just 5D for me.

Second choice is 4N. On general principles, when we have no other slam tries available 4N should be a general slam try not keycard. Since here 5C would be natural (I think), it follows that 4N is a slam try in diamonds.

EDIT: On second thoughts, 6D feels like even more. Am I really meant to criticise partners bidding when he has a fairly normal KQx x QJxx KQxxx? For me north could still just have a balanced hand with 4 diamonds. When I play std (ie not short club) I like to be able to open either minor, so 3244 is not ruled out for me. Playing short club there are obviously buckets of hands that would open 1c with 4 or (occasionally) five poor diamonds in a wk nt.

Is (other) phil assuming good bad so that 3D showed extras? I play that here, but I wouldnt assume it was standard here.

[neilkaz]

Phil wrote,"On general principles, when we have no other slam tries available 4N should be a general slam try not keycard."

Agreed. Here I'd try 4N if 3♦ shows any extras and I have some sympathy for a blast to 6♦ if playing good/bad 2NT but fear two ♥ losers.

[Phil]

phil_20686, on 2012-April-09, 11:20, said:

Is (other) phil assuming good bad so that 3D showed extras? I play that here, but I wouldnt assume it was standard here.

No I'm not assuming G/B, but I think it would be useful to be able to show a forcing 3♦ call and a competitive call even though I've never seen the bid in that specific application.

[Phil]

BTW I looked up the hand and the vulnerability is w/w, not r/w.

[gszes]

6d

This will be right probably less than 50% of
the time (as far as making) but there are
several advantages to this bid even when it
goes down.

1. Opps might not x ill take that trade off any day
as insurance against 5s making or 5sx(x) making.

2. I am not so sure I would be happy to pass if
p x 5s (if I bid 5d). This is far less in the way
of tricks p might expect from a 2d bid.

3. Opps might take a 6s "sac" which they hopefully
cannot make.

4. Hand should have enough play to keep us from getting
hammered for more than -2. Even with X this is a small
price to play for allowing us latitude with our
competitive bidding.

5. If we bid 5d and later bid 6d the chances of X go
up dramatically and I am not so sure our chances of
making go up at the same rate.

[JLOGIC]

Are you guys crazy? What is this 6D lol. Maybe I am from a different planet, 3D is a non forcing bid and shows a minimum opener with a fit to me, and I would have thought thats completely standard. Meanwhile, I have 9 points including my side 5 card suit being in RHOs suit.

I do not really expect to make 5D anywhere close to all the time but I would bid it since they will often be making 4S (aka, it will often be a save), they won't really be able to double me ever, and I will make a fair amount of the time.

[JLOGIC]

phil_20686, on 2012-April-09, 11:20, said:

Just 5D for me.

Second choice is 4N. On general principles, when we have no other slam tries available 4N should be a general slam try not keycard. Since here 5C would be natural (I think), it follows that 4N is a slam try in diamonds.

EDIT: On second thoughts, 6D feels like even more. Am I really meant to criticise partners bidding when he has a fairly normal KQx x QJxx KQxxx? For me north could still just have a balanced hand with 4 diamonds. When I play std (ie not short club) I like to be able to open either minor, so 3244 is not ruled out for me. Playing short club there are obviously buckets of hands that would open 1c with 4 or (occasionally) five poor diamonds in a wk nt.

Is (other) phil assuming good bad so that 3D showed extras? I play that here, but I wouldnt assume it was standard here.

Why would it be normal for partner to have 4 diamonds and a stiff heart and bid only 3D? It is possible but he will usually be bidding more than a non forcing 3D with a hand like that which he knows is powerful. Surely a weak NT is more common (4234, 3235), and if partner has a stiff heart then 4135 or 3136 will be very common. Our hand just isn't very good unless partner does have 4 diamonds and a stiff heart.

Edit: I mean seriously when I saw this hand posted I assumed that timo was thinking he should pass since 5D will be down pretty often and it's r/w and since he has the defense of hearts being locked up behind RHO, and an ace lol. Was gonna come in and post that it was too big of a view since they could just have 10 spades.

[MrAce]

JLOGIC, on 2012-April-09, 21:51, said:

Are you guys crazy? What is this 6D lol. Maybe I am from a different planet, 3D is a non forcing bid and shows a minimum opener with a fit to me, and I would have thought thats completely standard. Meanwhile, I have 9 points including my side 5 card suit being in RHOs suit.

I do not really expect to make 5D anywhere close to all the time but I would bid it since they will often be making 4S (aka, it will often be a save), they won't really be able to double me ever, and I will make a fair amount of the time.

I bid 6♦.

Believe me or not, when i did that i remembered one of your posts in the forums. A strategical bid with the hope of opponents saving. I knew very well that we were unlikely to make it, but we were 16 imps behind also, I thought i would be very uncomfortable to defend 5♠, but if i bid 6♦ now with confident they can not stand sitting on it. My pd was Ira, he actually thinks 6♦ is a great bid for the reasons i just said whether they are valid or i was dreaming. Indeed they took the save in 6♠ for doubled -2. But 6♦ was making, pd had

Axx
x
J87
AKT9xx

[JLOGIC]

MrAce, on 2012-April-09, 22:05, said:

I bid 6♦.

Believe me or not, when i did that i remembered one of your posts in the forums. A strategical bid with the hope of opponents saving. I thought i would be very uncomfortable to defend 5♠, but if i bid 6♦ now with confident they can not stand sitting on it. My pd was Ira, he actually thinks 6♦ is a great bid for the reasons i just said whether they are valid or i was dreaming. Indeed they took the save in 6♠ for doubled -2. But 6♦ was making, pd had

Axx
x
J87
AKT9xx

6D is an awful contract opposite this hand, and I am not sure that this hand should just be bidding 3D, this is a great hand. Maybe I am misunderstanding this auction, are people playing that 3D shows extras and/or is forcing? I would always raise with 3 diamonds in a wk NT hand type.

Playing poker is playing poker and it's hard to comment on that element without more specifics, but you cannot bid 6D every time you are r/w hoping they save, so it is hard to comment on. I would have considered this a bad hand type for it, they are less likely to save than usual, LHO has shortness in his partners suit, if someone has a trump trick they definitely won't save, and if someone has good clubs they will not save (since that is openers first suit). When they have bid 2 suits, they will not be concerned about you making slam if they have a good holding in a third suit. So in general I would think this is a very bad auction/hand to play poker instead of bridge, but I'm all for poker and if you had reasons to believe their mindset was such that they would save then go for it.

I guess what I'm saying is that 6D is almost a pure bluff, you are bidding it solely to make them save. In poker and bridge, the best bluffs are semi bluffs, where if they don't save you will often make (or draw out in poker). I don't see why I would expect 6D to make very often at all, it's like a 2 outter with 1 card to come! I also don't see why I'd expect them to "fold" and take the save when they have bid 2 suits, and have a lot of values in general, have shortness in their partners suit, and often have a trick or good holding in one of our two suits.

The fact that they saved here is because neither of them had a good holding in either minor suit. Also because LHO did not have a stiff heart in which case he will never save, a possibility that is highly likely on this auction.

Are you sure 6D is a make btw? I don't know the full hand but look how horrible it is on heart-heart tapping the dummy (which is a normal lead on this auction, LHOs shortness in his partners suit, and a very normal continuation looking at dummy if trumps are 2-2...gotta tap the dummy to have a shot and you are almost marked with a spade void).

[mike777]

VERY INTERESTING OP and thread thanks for posting and comments.

As a nonexpert I would have bid 5d....but I can understand those who bid 6d

[JLOGIC]

Are you even sure you gained on the actual hand by bidding 6D rather than 5D? If you bid 5D and they bid 5S your partner would probably bid 6D, he needs only no diamond loser for 6D to be good given that he has the clubs, the heart control and the SA. And no diamond loser is likely, you have to have something for 2D then 5D. But that just goes to show that 3D might not be a good bid.

[MrAce]

JLOGIC, on 2012-April-09, 22:16, said:

6D is an awful contract opposite this hand, and I am not sure that this hand should just be bidding 3D, this is a great hand. Maybe I am misunderstanding this auction, are people playing that 3D shows extras and/or is forcing? I would always raise with 3 diamonds in a wk NT hand type.

Playing poker is playing poker and it's hard to comment on that element without more specifics, but you cannot bid 6D every time you are r/w hoping they save, so it is hard to comment on. I would have considered this a bad hand type for it, they are less likely to save than usual, LHO has shortness in his partners suit, if someone has a trump trick they definitely won't save, and if someone has good clubs they will not save (since that is openers first suit). When they have bid 2 suits, they will not be concerned about you making slam if they have a good holding in a third suit. So in general I would think this is a very bad auction/hand to play poker instead of bridge, but I'm all for poker and if you had reasons to believe their mindset was such that they would save then go for it.

I guess what I'm saying is that 6D is almost a pure bluff, you are bidding it solely to make them save. In poker and bridge, the best bluffs are semi bluffs, where if they don't save you will often make (or draw out in poker). I don't see why I would expect 6D to make very often at all, it's like a 2 outter with 1 card to come! I also don't see why I'd expect them to "fold" and take the save when they have bid 2 suits, and have a lot of values in general, have shortness in their partners suit, and often have a trick or good holding in one of our two suits.

The fact that they saved here is because neither of them had a good holding in either minor suit. Also because LHO did not have a stiff heart in which case he will never save, a possibility that is highly likely on this auction.

Are you sure 6D is a make btw? I don't know the full hand but look how horrible it is on heart-heart tapping the dummy (which is a normal lead on this auction, LHOs shortness in his partners suit, and a very normal continuation looking at dummy if trumps are 2-2...gotta tap the dummy to have a shot and you are almost marked with a spade void).

QJxx ♣ was on , after they make the defense you suggested i think i have to play for that. (seeing 3-1 ♦ when Q drops)

I still dont think pd's hand was as huge tressure as you say it is. He has an A in my void, almost worths nothing, i would rather prefer a trump Q or ♣ Q instead. Yes you are right he might have a weak NT hand but at some point you have to take a shot when behind in the match, and hands like that wont come too often when you need them. So, no , it is not something i do "everytime red vs white" or something as you saw it. It was an oportunity at a time when we needed a swing to be back in the game.

EDIT: Some of the spots are wrog in the hand i gave, my hand diamonds are AKT987 and pd has J62

JLOGIC, on 2012-April-09, 22:25, said:

Are you even sure you gained on the actual hand by bidding 6D rather than 5D? If you bid 5D and they bid 5S your partner would probably bid 6D, he needs only no diamond loser for 6D to be good given that he has the clubs, the heart control and the SA. And no diamond loser is likely, you have to have something for 2D then 5D. But that just goes to show that 3D might not be a good bid.

As Phil said ( i just noticed ) the vulnerability was w/w , not r/w as the diagram shows.

[Phil]

JLOGIC, on 2012-April-09, 22:16, said:

In poker and bridge, the best bluffs are semi bluffs, where if they don't save you will often make (or draw out in poker). I don't see why I would expect 6D to make very often at all, it's like a 2 outter with 1 card to come!

I think 6♦ is exactly like a semi-bluff and it will 'often make' (note: often simply means 'frequently' which does not mean 'more than 50%' - although it takes some context to really define 'frequent').

This seems identical to pushing with the Ace with a four-flush (board has 3) on the turn into two pair. In both cases you don't have a made hand, but with some love, you will make and even when you don't they will fold (save) enough of the time to make it EV+ over 5♦ - (whatever result that leads to).

While I agree that if they have a trump trick, they won't, but partner also could have the ♥A too. As you can see on the actual hand, LHO having club length is not any guarantee that they will sit, since his clubs are under the club bidder. 6♠ could be cheaper than a game from LHO's standpoint, especially opposite a 4♠ bidder who could have a weak 4-6 w/r (w/w changes everything IMO).

JLOGIC, on 2012-April-09, 22:16, said:

I don't see why I would expect 6D to make very often at all, it's like a 2 outter with 1 card to come! .

You really think 6♦ is 23:1?? As long as 6♦ is making 10-15% its good enough assuming they save enough of the time.

JLOGIC, on 2012-April-09, 22:16, said:

Are you even sure you gained on the actual hand by bidding 6D rather than 5D? If you bid 5D and they bid 5S your partner would probably bid 6D, he needs only no diamond loser for 6D to be good given that he has the clubs, the heart control and the SA. And no diamond loser is likely, you have to have something for 2D then 5D. But that just goes to show that 3D might not be a good bid.

Yes, there are some scenarios where partner will bid 6♦ over their 5♠. But if that is the case the 6♦ bidders are in so much better shape, since the 4♠ bidder gets to hear from his partner first. I thought the 6♠ bid was pretty bad TBH, but so are a lot of folds in the face of semi-bluffs.

JLOGIC, on 2012-April-09, 22:16, said:

Playing poker is playing poker and it's hard to comment on that element without more specifics.

His LHO was ch00. Specific enough for ya?

[phil_20686]

How do I quote on the iPhone version?

Kqx x qjxx kqxxx was meant to be a max 3d bid. I think it's normal to bid 3d with this hand? No aces values in rho suit although agree I could just have a wk nt.

Post was a long the lines of his can 6d be right when typical good 3d bids routinely offer no play. Obvio all constructions a bit of an absurd way to argue.