[twcho]

Yes, for sure I also witnessed F-N missed some very good game contracts. This does not prove that they play poorly (I also witness B-D and L-V bid to slam lacking two aces in the same round and they were beaten each time. Does that prove they are lousy pairs?)

I think the fair way to measure their performance is to look at the pairs' individual score. We can judge from their butler score in the round robin that they are actually by far the most consistent Italian pairs. They are way up in the score with 1.07 imps while B-D is only 0.52 and L-V only 0.41. Moreover, they are the runaway leader in their strong group (their group consists of the final champion, the 1st runner up and 2nd runner up).

Further to strengthen the fact they did play very good is that in their round of 16 vs USA, it was because the two sessions that they played did they win over USA (the two sessions they participated Italy won 27:4 and 54:17 which is the final set and they overtook USA as the result of this set)

[twcho]

Among Fantoni and Nunes, Fantoni was being applaused by the commentators such as Bart Bramley as "Deep Fantoni". We have witnessed the excellent declarer plays by Fantoni to bring in some very difficult contracts. If I should label one player as the best player in this Olympic championship, Fantoni is definitely my choice.

[junyi_zhu]

Jlall, on Nov 12 2004, 06:22 AM, said:

junyi they won the round of 16 match against USA (these 2 teams considered the strongest) by 11 if i remember correctly. so if you play within 11 imps over a long match as well as fantoni-nunes do you are one of the best in the world

Well, is this USA team the best of the world? I really doubt so. Even China's team
almost blitzed them at round robin stage.
Also, two copies of myself mean no misunderstandings in bidding and defensive
signals, that's a huge edge. You lose a match usually not because opps play
too well, usually because you have had too many misunderstandings in your partnership.
The third thing, I have probably the one of the best 2/1 systems in the world.
The last thing, I might not be the best now, but who knows in ten or twentry years what will hapeen.

Still, they win many events doesn't mean their system is superio. If a system has
many holes, it can't last long in my humble opinion.

[pclayton]

Wow - I can't resist.

Per Jun-yi:

Well, is this USA team the best of the world? I really doubt so. Even China's team
almost blitzed them at round robin stage.
___________________________________________

I think you can look at a lot of the RR results and draw a lot of erroneous conclusions. The fact that China had a good match with them over 20 boards doesn't mean squat. See how they do over 120 and call me.
___________________________________________

Also, two copies of myself mean no misunderstandings in bidding and defensive
signals, that's a huge edge. You lose a match usually not because opps play
too well, usually because you have had too many misunderstandings in your partnership.
___________________________________________

Hogwash! If you have ever practiced with your favorite partner, he is making a call looking at his own hand. You make calls looking at your hand. Whenever my pard and I have a mix-up, I can't tell you how many times I've said, "Your interpretation looks correct from YOUR side".

So, just becuase you are bidding with a clone of yourself doesn't mean that you are immune to misunderstandings.

Even Meckwell has bidding misunderstandings; its impossible, not to mention impractical to have agreements for every conceivable situation.

___________________________________________


The third thing, I have probably the one of the best 2/1 systems in the world.

___________________________________________

I will look forward to the book with interest.

___________________________________________


The last thing, I might not be the best now, but who knows in ten or twentry years what will hapeen.

___________________________________________

Well, I hope you get involved in cloning research, since you will need a team of 5 copies of yourself to accomplish this, because, with this attitude, you rate to have a tough time getting teammates.

___________________________________________

Still, they win many events doesn't mean their system is superio.

___________________________________________

I'd say winning an Olympiad is about the only proof I need.

___________________________________________

If a system has many holes, it can't last long in my humble opinion.

___________________________________________

You and I sure have a different idea about what 'humble' means.

[junyi_zhu]

pclayton, on Nov 12 2004, 06:01 PM, said:

Wow - I can't resist.

Per Jun-yi:

Well, is this USA team the best of the world? I really doubt so. Even China's team
almost blitzed them at round robin stage.
___________________________________________

I think you can look at a lot of the RR results and draw a lot of erroneous conclusions. The fact that China had a good match with them over 20 boards doesn't mean squat. See how they do over 120 and call me.
___________________________________________

Also, two copies of myself mean no misunderstandings in bidding and defensive
signals, that's a huge edge. You lose a match usually not because opps play
too well, usually because you have had too many misunderstandings in your partnership.
___________________________________________

Hogwash! If you have ever practiced with your favorite partner, he is making a call looking at his own hand. You make calls looking at your hand. Whenever my pard and I have a mix-up, I can't tell you how many times I've said, "Your interpretation looks correct from YOUR side".

So, just becuase you are bidding with a clone of yourself doesn't mean that you are immune to misunderstandings.

Even Meckwell has bidding misunderstandings; its impossible, not to mention impractical to have agreements for every conceivable situation.

___________________________________________


The third thing, I have probably the one of the best 2/1 systems in the world.

___________________________________________

I will look forward to the book with interest.

___________________________________________


The last thing, I might not be the best now, but who knows in ten or twentry years what will hapeen.

___________________________________________

Well, I hope you get involved in cloning research, since you will need a team of 5 copies of yourself to accomplish this, because, with this attitude, you rate to have a tough time getting teammates.

___________________________________________

Still, they win many events doesn't mean their system is superio.

___________________________________________

I'd say winning an Olympiad is about the only proof I need.

___________________________________________

If a system has many holes, it can't last long in my humble opinion.

___________________________________________

You and I sure have a different idea about what 'humble' means.

Well, your words may sound insulting to some people, but I don't mind them at all. All I want to say is to present my thoughts in a neutral way, even when I talked about myself. I never had an implication that I am strong, I am smart, my partners or teammates are not so good.
in that sense, cloning doesn't help either, because environment changes people a lot. All I want to say is that everybody can reach to the top of the level if they work hard and minimize their partnership misunderstandings if they treat their partners as themselves.

Still the last thing I want to present is that a team of 4 consisting only B/D, L/V can probably win those things as well. If you take the matter this way, you would pretty much understand what I was talking about.

[Gerben47]

I can't resist either:

The USA could have sent a great team to the Olympiad but they didn't send their best team (their unwillingness to go to Istanbul is a big chunk in the minus column for me). If you don't send the best team, although still stronger almost all of the other teams, it is not very surprising that other top nations that DO send their best team do better.

I think it is good that others get a chance as well (albeit for the wrong reasons) but then don't come and say they are the best team in the world as they are not the best team in the USA.

[Free]

Jlall, on Nov 17 2004, 11:57 PM, said:

The team we sent included some of the best players in the world. Gerben, if USA had beaten italy would they not be the overwhelming favorites to win the whole thing? I think most people realized early on it was between USA and Italy.

If if if, blablabla...

I know all about if-structures: they usually have a "then" and an "else". In all these hypothetical statements, all I read is "ELSE nothing special happened". If the "then" is never applicable, why waste your time with it anyway?

If we played bidding systems we play now 40 years ago, we'd win all events. So what?

If the USA had beaten Italy ... but they DIDN'T! Live with it.

[pbleighton]

"The team we sent included some of the best players in the world. Gerben, if USA had beaten italy would they not be the overwhelming favorites to win the whole thing? I think most people realized early on it was between USA and Italy."

That is insulting to the rest of the world.

Are you campaigning for a job in the State Department

Peter (U.S.A.)

[pclayton]

pbleighton, on Nov 17 2004, 05:16 PM, said:

"The team we sent included some of the best players in the world. Gerben, if USA had beaten italy would they not be the overwhelming favorites to win the whole thing? I think most people realized early on it was between USA and Italy."

That is insulting to the rest of the world.

Are you campaigning for a job in the State Department 

Peter (U.S.A.)

I don't think its insulting at all, I think its factual. Would you have taken 1:3 odds that either Italy or the US would win? I would.

This has nothing to do with nationalism, in my opinion.

[Gerben47]

Pclayton, I'd take 1:3 with Italy alone if you would like to throw in a second country, fine with me

Justin, now don't get into this 'The USA is the best country in the world' stuff.' No one believes that anyway.
I guess only in the USA people realized it was between them and the Italians. This might have been true had their strongest lineup played. But as you know they were unwilling to play in Istanbul which is a very safe place unless you are an English soccer fan.

As it was the players on the team were among the best of the world, but guess what: so were some other teams! Had the USA beaten the Italians I think my list of favorites would be a close tie between 3 teams:

* China (It's not just in economy they will overtake everyone, it seems in bridge as well)
* Netherlands (they beat Italy in the Round Robin, perhaps they can keep Italy from taking a 7th European Title in a row?)
* USA (Even without Meckwell and co. they are a great team)

[pbleighton]

"yeah yeah not very politically correct or diplomatic whatever. Take offense if u like, or just consider facts."

Then

"Now perhaps you dont realize the opposite is true, you are very anti-american (i know this from the e2025 forums), and do not like to acknowledge that perhaps we had a team better than other non-italian teams. You may not realize but on average europeans are much more anti-american than americans are anti-european. Im done with this thread, its a joke."

Exit the Ugly American, who took offense.

Peter (U.S.A.)

[OrShoham]

Uhm. After having read through the entire thread.. does anyone actually have the notes to the F-N system?

[inquiry]

Well, here is a link to their convention card and wbf notes. But this is not what this thread is asking for.

Fantoni-Nunes

As to their playing ability raised earlier. Their Butler score was by far and away the best on a very good italian team, and I think the highest in the 2004 olympiad.

Ben

[Gerben47]

In a recent tournament I played that system and it is not completely trivial to fill in the blanks.
For example: How do you continue after 1♣ - weak response? What do you do with the 18-20 balanced hand? (1♣ - 1x - 1NT = 15 - 17 balanced)

[inquiry]

This thread has been reopened.

Ben