[kriegel]

Fairly simple 2/1, teams. You hold:

♠K
♥x
♦AKQJTxx
♣KQxx

Partner opens 1♠. Opponents pass throughout. Your bid?

Spoiler

If you respond 2♦, partner bids 2♥.

If you ask for aces at some point, partner shows 3.

A pretty straightforward hand if you ask me; I'm just curious about everyone's bidding plan.

[mike777]

kriegel, on 2012-March-04, 17:15, said:

Fairly simple 2/1, teams. You hold:

♠K
♥x
♦AKQJTxx
♣KQxx

Partner opens 1♠. Opponents pass throughout. Your bid?

Spoiler

If you respond 2♦, partner bids 2♥.

If you ask for aces at some point, partner shows 3.

A pretty straightforward hand if you ask me; I'm just curious about everyone's bidding plan.

will bid 2d and 4d over 2s or 2h by pard.


fwiw I play 4h over 4d will be rkc in d not a cuebid or natural if that matters.

4s by pard would be AS, 4nt by pard would be AH.....5c would be AC.

[kriegel]

mike777, on 2012-March-04, 17:18, said:

will bid 2d and 4d over 2s or 2h by pard.


fwiw I play 4h over 4d will be rkc in d not a cuebid or natural if that matters.

4s by pard would be AS, 4nt by pard would be AH.....5c would be AC.

Edit: Partner bids 4♠, showing a control.

[mike777]

kriegel, on 2012-March-04, 17:24, said:

Now partner raises to 5♦.

Edit: I suppose partner might bid 4♠ instead, if you're showing strong slam interest.

4d demands pard cue aces take charge with rkc or bid 5d with nothing.....if pard bids 5d I have an easy pass

not sure why in the world you would think 4d is not strong slam interest playing 2/1.


If pard bids 4s I have an easy 5d pard will bid cue again with 2 aces or with 2 aces he may rkc with 4h...

[TWO4BRIDGE]

If partner bid 5D over your 4D-jump ( following your 2D 2/1 GF ) and he held 3 outside Aces, then he didn't understand that 4D set trump and demanded cuebids .

[kriegel]

mike777, on 2012-March-04, 17:31, said:

4d demands pard cue aces take charge with rkc or bid 5d with nothing.....if pard bids 5d I have an easy pass

not sure why in the world you would think 4d is not strong slam interest playing 2/1.


If pard bids 4s I have an easy 5d pard will bid cue again with 2 aces or with 2 aces he may rkc with 4h...

Yes, I was too hasty when I said he would bid 5♦, and "if" wasn't the right word - sorry. Clearly, 4♦ sets trump and starts cuebidding. But I wouldn't take it for granted that partner would continue with a second cue at the 5-level just because he's holding 2 aces. Should we make a stronger try than bidding 5♦ over 4♠?

But in any case,
4♠ - 5♦
5♥, what now?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

If partner ( Opener ) has 3 outside Aces, he should ask for key cards ( w/4H! kickback ) after Responder's 4D-jump rather than cuebid .
When he finds Responder with ♦AKQ ( the 4th step : Edit Correction = 5D reply ) -- guaranteeing all key cards -- and if he continues with the K-ask ( 5H! ), Responder can count to 13 and confidently bids 7NT.

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2012-March-05, 08:09

[mike777]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-March-04, 18:18, said:

If partner ( Opener ) has 3 outside Aces, he should ask for key cards ( w/4H! kickback ) after Responder's 4D-jump rather than cuebid .
When he finds Responder with ♦AKQ ( the 4th step 5C reply )-- guaranteeing all key cards -- and if he continues with the K-ask ( 5H! ), Responder can count to 13 and confidently bids 7NT.

ditto, Ithink you mean 5d with 2 and the q....

[kriegel]

Yes, I agree that responder can count to 13 if opener asks and subsequently asks for kings.

But opener's hand was
♠Axxxx
♥Axxx
♦x
♣Axx

That hand seems much more likely to make cuebids than to ask for keycards - the whole value of his hand is the 3 aces. Those are easily shown via a keycard response. Opener doesn't know about the exact nature of responder's hand beyond a long (solid, if that's your agreement) diamond suit with slam interest. He doesn't know about the major-suit shortness (couldn't responder be 2=2=7=2?) or the club fillers. Granted, opener knows that responder has values somewhere, but it seems much easier for responder to ask.

My solution at the table was to bid 4NT (standard Blackwood) over 1♠. I got the 3-ace response and away I went. I would never not ask for keycards with this hand; that's really all the information I want out of partner.

[mike777]

kriegel, on 2012-March-04, 18:56, said:

Yes, I agree that responder can count to 13 if opener asks and subsequently asks for kings.

But opener's hand was
♠Axxxx
♥Axxx
♦x
♣Axx

That hand seems much more likely to make cuebids than to ask for keycards - the whole value of his hand is the 3 aces. Those are easily shown via a keycard response. Opener doesn't know about the exact nature of responder's hand beyond a long (solid, if that's your agreement) diamond suit with slam interest. He doesn't know about the major-suit shortness (couldn't responder be 2=2=7=2?) or the club fillers. Granted, opener knows that responder has values somewhere, but it seems much easier for responder to ask.

My solution at the table was to bid 4NT (standard Blackwood) over 1♠. I got the 3-ace response and away I went. I would never not ask for keycards with this hand; that's really all the information I want out of partner.

lets grant your example 2272 is rare but possible but so what......south wants to take control with rkc and find out.


4d is a huge hand not just diamonds but huge....as i pointed out I would rkc with 2 aces let alone 3 and drive to slam.

with a lesser hand bid 2d and 3d


I think you miss the entire point of 4d. 4d=solid diamonds across from a void with strong slam interest..it is not a meaningless bid. It does not just mean 7 solid diamonds and nothing else.

That means if opener has 2 aces you are forcing to slam. You might not make it but you are forcing.
That means with 3 aces you are always looking for the grand, always looking.....

[Zelandakh]

2/1 auction:-
1♠ - 2♦
2♥ - 4♦ (slam try)
4NT (accept, 0 or 3 key cards) - 7NT

I think this method, where a 4♥ response to 4♦ declines the slam try rather than having to bid 5, is superior to standard. It solves most of these 4 level minor problems that come up as forum hands although it does have its down sides too.

Strong club auction:-
1♠ = 10-17, 5+ spades, unbal
... - 1NT = INV+ relay
2♦ = 4+ hearts
... - 2♥ = GF relay
2NT = 5 spades, 4 hearts, not 54(40)
... - 3♣ = relay
3♦ = 5413
... - 3♥ = relay
3♠ = min
... - 4♣ = relay
5♣ = 6 controls
... - 7NT

[Cyberyeti]

kriegel, on 2012-March-04, 18:56, said:

Yes, I agree that responder can count to 13 if opener asks and subsequently asks for kings.

But opener's hand was
♠Axxxx
♥Axxx
♦x
♣Axx

That hand seems much more likely to make cuebids than to ask for keycards - the whole value of his hand is the 3 aces. Those are easily shown via a keycard response. Opener doesn't know about the exact nature of responder's hand beyond a long (solid, if that's your agreement) diamond suit with slam interest. He doesn't know about the major-suit shortness (couldn't responder be 2=2=7=2?) or the club fillers. Granted, opener knows that responder has values somewhere, but it seems much easier for responder to ask.

My solution at the table was to bid 4NT (standard Blackwood) over 1♠. I got the 3-ace response and away I went. I would never not ask for keycards with this hand; that's really all the information I want out of partner.

If you play this as standard blackwood, you're in good shape, but I suspect most people don't. 1♠-4N-5♣(1/4)- and you can't bid 5♦ to play being a possibility for trouble.

I'd start with a strong jump shift 3♦ treating the hand as one suited given that I can never wish to play in clubs here.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Zelandakh, on 2012-March-05, 07:57, said:

2/1 auction:-
1♠ - 2♦
2♥ - 4♦ (slam try)
4NT (accept, 0 or 3 key cards) - 7NT

I think this method, where a 4♥ response to 4♦ declines the slam try rather than having to bid 5, is superior to standard. It solves most of these 4 level minor problems that come up as forum hands although it does have its down sides too.

I was thinking too that the 4♦-jump -- in going past 3NT and setting trump -- should just be keycard-ask ( given the limited space when a minor is trump ).
In your method above, do you just skip Opener's two suits in the replies?
4N = 0/3
5C = 1/4
5D = 2 - ♦Q
5H = 2 + ♦Q

Actually, I bet 4NT was the "2nd" key card step showing 0/3:
4H = no interest
4S = 1/4
4N = 0/3
etc.

[Zelandakh]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-March-05, 08:32, said:

Actually, I bet 4NT was the "2nd" key card step showing 0/3:

Yeah, this is correct. The first step declines the slam try and other steps accept the slam try with key card responses. After a negative the first step asks for key cards anyway. So, after 4♦:-

4♥ = decline slam try
... - 4♠ = RKCB
4♠ = accept slam try, 1 or 4
4NT = accept slam try, 0 or 3
5♣ = accept slam try, 2 or 5 -Q
5♦ = accept slam try, 2 or 5 +Q

and the same for clubs but all bids one level lower. This is essentially a compromise between 4m being a natural slam try and Minorwood.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Zelandakh, on 2012-March-05, 08:41, said:

Yeah, this is correct. The first step declines the slam try and other steps accept the slam try with key card responses. After a negative the first step asks for key cards anyway. So, after 4♦:-

4♥ = decline slam try
... - 4♠ = RKCB
4♠ = accept slam try, 1 or 4
4NT = accept slam try, 0 or 3
5♣ = accept slam try, 2 or 5 -Q
5♦ = accept slam try, 2 or 5 +Q

and the same for clubs but all bids one level lower. This is essentially a compromise between 4m being a natural slam try and Minorwood.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has a "brainfade" now and then.
4NT = accept slam try, 1 or 4
etc.