[kenrexford]

An intriguing idea? (Ditching Puppet for another idea...)

2NT-P-?

3♦ = Stayman guaranteeing at least one 4-card major. Might be 4♥/5♠. Opener bids 3♠ with four (or five) spades, 3NT with four (or five) hearts, 3♥ with no 4-card major. After 3♥, Responder can bid 3♠ if 4♥/5♠. If Opener has both 4-card majors, 4♣ with re-transfers. Re-transfer over 3NT also.

3♣ = one or both 5-card majors (might be 5♥/4♠). Opener picks major he prefers if Responder has both, bidding 3♥ to preference hearts or 3♦ to preference spades. (Opener can also reject both majors if 2245/2254/2236/2263 bidding 3NT or can super-accept both majors if equal length in both with 3♠.) If Opener bids 3♦ for spade preference, Responder can transfer to spades (3♥) to set spades as trumps (Responder has both majors or just spades), bid 3NT with just hearts (five of them), bid 4♣ or 4♦ with slam interest and heart-minor combnation, or bid 3♠ as specifically 5♥/4♠. If Opener bids 3♥ for heart preference, Responder can bid 3NT with just spades, 4♣ or 4♦ with slam interest and spade-minor two-suiter, or 3♠ tpo set hearts as trumps (one or both majors but with hearts).

This frees up 3♥ and 3♠ both as not needed for major-suit exploration. I am open to ideas on these calls. But, maybe:

3♥ = slammish with clubs and maybe diamonds also. Opener can agree clubs or can try back with 3♠ if interested in diamonds.
3♠ = slammish with diamonds.

[helene_t]

If I have a bust with 5+ M I want to be able to play 3M.

[bluecalm]

Quote

3♦ = Stayman guaranteeing at least one 4-card major. Might be 4♥/5♠. Opener bids 3♠ with four (or five) spades, 3NT with four (or five) hearts, 3♥ with no 4-card major.

What does opener do with 4-4 majors? How do you find 4-4 fit if responder is strong ?
I mean, it goes:

2NT - 3D
3NT - now we have slam invite with 4 spades, what do we bid ?

[Cyberyeti]

What happens when the 2N opener has a 5 card major and responder has 3 ?

[kenrexford]

In response to the three questions so far:

1. What about escaping to 3M when weak?

Use this structure after 2♣...2NT or 2♣...Kokish if you want

2. What if Opener has 4-4 majors?

I answered that -- Opener bids 4♣ in response to 3♦, with re-transfers.

3. What about the 3-5 fit (Opener has a 5-card suit; Responder has 3)

This is the more difficult question. This alternatuve core is an idea for people who (a) don't play Puppet for whatever reason, (b) don't open or bid 2NT with 5-card majors, © don't think it that important to find the 3-5 fits, or (d) find the potential benefits from this new structure more important than the 3-5 major fit in the long run.

[Zelandakh]

If you are not finding 3-5 fits then you need to compare with regular Stayman rather than against Puppet. Here you seem to be worse off with the majority of major-oriented hands in order to get the 3H bid free. I am not sure this is a great trade-off. You also have a minor wrong-siding issue when Opener has 4 spades and Responder has 4♠5♥. On a more constructive note you might also consider 3S as 5 diamonds and 4C as 6+ diamonds. This enables you to find out if there is no diamond fit and still stop in 3NT. Perhaps this is already implied in your 3S = "diamonds" though.

[kenrexford]

Zelandakh, on 2011-December-12, 02:49, said:

If you are not finding 3-5 fits then you need to compare with regular Stayman rather than against Puppet. Here you seem to be worse off with the majority of major-oriented hands in order to get the 3H bid free. I am not sure this is a great trade-off. You also have a minor wrong-siding issue when Opener has 4 spades and Responder has 4♠5♥. On a more constructive note you might also consider 3S as 5 diamonds and 4C as 6+ diamonds. This enables you to find out if there is no diamond fit and still stop in 3NT. Perhaps this is already implied in your 3S = "diamonds" though.

I was actually thinking that 3M as a minor flag could be 4.

[Free]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when opener has a 3M-5m or 3M-4m and responder has a 5M-4m or 5M-5m, you can't play in the minor because opener already accepted the Major and responder can't bid his minor anymore.

[nigel_k]

Since space is so tight, I have always thought it is wasteful to have sequences where opener can't use all their possible calls because they don't know enough about responder's hand to bid anything higher than 3NT. For example, if you start with a 3♣ response showing 4+ hearts and 3♦ showing 4+ spades and denying four hearts, then you unlock these extra sequences because opener can bid at the four level immediately with suit agreement and anything at the three level will deny suit agreement. But I haven't worked out all the continuations. Probably you can do better than Puppet/Muppet this way but it would be complicated.

[1eyedjack]

I listed my preferred continuations here
http://www.bridgebas...dpost__p__33201

It shares with Ken's method the fact that it frees up 3H+ as not required for major suit exploration.
It satisfies Helene_t's desire to be able to bail out in 3M (personally I don't place great emphasis on this requirement)

Nigel_k will definitely not like this method as there is only one opener's rebid over 3D response (3H) and the rebids over 3C cannot go beyond 3N initially. I have not really given a lot of thought to Nigel_k's suggestion until now but could be sold on that.

I did once used to play a very simple method which I judged at the time as fairly effective, and which did allow for opener rebidding beyond 3N, but for that he needed both 4 card majors. The 3C response promised either a 4 card major or a slam try.
2N-3C-4C = 4-4 in the majors
2N-3C-3N = 4-4 in minors
2N-3C-3S = 4-4 in Clubs and Spades
2N-3C-3H = 4-4 in Clubs and Hearts
3N -3C-3D = 4D+4M or no more than 1 suit (any suit) containing more than 3 cards.
There was then a bit more funny stuff over 2N-3C-3D. In a later version I also amended the immediate 3H rebid to be a 2-way bid (having 3S as an ask available)
This method was quite strong in the slam zone, particularly where there is a minor suit fit. But it does give up on finding some 5-3 major suit fits at the game zone, particularly where opener has 5M. That was a step too far for most of the partners that I tried to press it on.

[Zelandakh]

1eyedjack, on 2011-December-14, 14:24, said:

This method was quite strong in the slam zone, particularly where there is a minor suit fit. But it does give up on finding some 5-3 major suit fits at the game zone, particularly where opener has 5M. That was a step too far for most of the partners that I tried to press it on.

You might have had more luck with convincing them on skip-Baron since Baron had a big following in Britain at one time. That is where Opener treats 3NT as normal Baron (bids their lowest 4-card suit) but Responder bids the lowest suit they hold with <4 cards. Thus it has the same plusses and minuses as normal Baron but with right-siding thrown in. Your (previous) method is similar to this in some ways. Good luck on getting a partner for your current methods!

[kenrexford]

Free, on 2011-December-14, 09:24, said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when opener has a 3M-5m or 3M-4m and responder has a 5M-4m or 5M-5m, you can't play in the minor because opener already accepted the Major and responder can't bid his minor anymore.

If Opener prefers the major that Responder has, you can still arrange to play in a minor. For examples:

2NT-3♣
3♦(spades)-3♥(transfer agreement)
3♠-?

3NT = start cues
4♣/4♦=second suit

or

2NT-3♣
3♥(hearts)-3♠(slam try agrees spades)
3NT(minor?)-4♣/4♦ second, 4♥ nope