[MrAce]

---

IMP, strong opponents,

1NT =14-16 can have 5 card major, no puppet stayman available.
3♣=Preempt
DBL=Neg

What would you bid now ?

[cnszsun]

3NT？ What else we can do.

[mike777]

cnszsun, on 2011-November-04, 21:31, said:

3NT？ What else we can do.

ditto this must be your plan after x?

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If not then pass over 3c

[MrAce]

I was wondering what would be 3♠ now. Is it 5+ ♠ and better/worse than direct 3♠ or is it 4♠ without ♣ stopper?

Because if u bid 3NT, DBL on your left and pass pass coming to you, putting you in an uncomfortable position where u ask yourself "Do we actually stop ♣ suit ? "

[Fluffy]

3♠ seems obvious to me

[gnasher]

MrAce, on 2011-November-05, 01:04, said:

I was wondering what would be 3♠ now. Is it 5+ ♠ and better/worse than direct 3♠ or is it 4♠ without ♣ stopper?

I think eiither is playable.

If it's five spades, it's non-forcing, because you didn't bid 3♠ on the round before. That only works after a 3♣ overcall, because after 1NT (3♦) dbl opener might have to bid 3NT on a 33xx minimum.

I prefer to play the double as game-forcing, and 3♦ and 3♥ by responder as transfers. With those methods, dbl-3♥-3♠ is obviously the hand-type in the original post - with five spades you'd transfer; with four spades and a club stop you'd bid dbl-3♥-3NT; with no major you'd bid 3NT directly.

Quote

Because if u bid 3NT, DBL on your left and pass pass coming to you, putting you in an uncomfortable position where u ask yourself "Do we actually stop ♣ suit ? "

I think opener should usually redouble with a double club stop or Axx. Hence I'd pull to 4♣, offering a choice of strains.

An alternative is to play doubt-showing redoubles, but I don't understand them.

[JLOGIC]

Anyone think pass is an option? I know, zomg spot cards and everything but if partner doesn't have 4 spades we only have 9 points and no club stopper and no fit* no 5 card suit opp a 14-16 NT, it could be best to pass, especially as no doubling has started yet.

*-Assuming partner bids 4C with 4-4 in the majors.

That being said, ZOMG, spot cards. They are really freaking good.

[JLOGIC]

gnasher, on 2011-November-05, 03:53, said:

I think opener should usually redouble with a double club stop or Axx.

I dunno, if I have a minimum 1N opener and I know my partner is endplayed with 9, I'm not looking to be forced to play 3N XXed just because I have Axx. If I have a double club stopper and a min, I'm thinking RHO is doubling me because I'm screwed, not having enough HCP, and having poorly placed honors (presumably my double club stopper is not greatly placed honors, and RHO is sitting behind my partner...).

It seems pretty wild to me to be forced to play it redoubled in a preemptive auction where you were pressured to bid lighter than usual and sometimes get punished. The only way I could see it is if they are ripping 3N in this kind of spot so often as a poker/whatever play that we need methods to counter it and we are often cold for 3N.

Like if my partner were always XXing with Axx or a double club stop. I would not be happy to play 3N XX against most Xers opposite every single hand like that that opened a 14-16 NT.

Again it's a little bit of poker, and they could probably play some kind of balanced strategy, but depending on your opp you probably know you are just *****ed (run), or if they're of a higher level but not great then they are probably always hoping you'll run since they're not sure if you're making and are ready for the run (sit). And some of it might depend on what they think of you.

[JLOGIC]

And finally I agree with Timo 100 % that if you bid here, 3S is the bid, and that it shows this.

[dake50]

Are we really forcing on this
9 + 14-16 = 23-25 combined?
I would surely have left partner
to bid his 5xM or double to ask my bid
if the fight was still in him after 3C.
I guess now 3S. I forced myself didn't I?
This feels like the defenders are
about to pounce.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Let's see.. when it comes to NT bidding, what does Ken Rexford say about stoppers ? .... oh, yes, I recall now... see my signature below .

[chasetb]

I first saw this poll last night, and waffled between Pass, 3♠, and 3NT. While MrAce's description of 3♠ is best, undiscussed I think partner would think we have 5. I also had a feeling (before seeing 3NT getting X'ed) that this time 3NT wasn't good. Ultimately I pass, this hand has some similarities to a hand I had at my recent NAP qualifier. You are Vul, and the auction starts (2♦) - 2NT - (3♦). You have ♠KT985 ♥K84 ♦6 ♣QJ93. I chose 4♠, and went down when partner put down a hand with 14 of 15 HCP in the minors and no 8-card fit. 3NT makes double dummy, but you have to finesse the 8♥ missing the AQ9!

Sorry, but since I brought it up I'm putting in a shameless plug for some hands I want people to give responses to: http://www.bridgebas...4-hands-an-atb/

[MrAce]

As 1 NT opener i had

Kx Kxxx AQx Axxx

Would anyone consider pass with this at these colors ? Had i decided to pass that would be a better result for us. But i think i did the right thing by bidding, after all i had no idea at the moment that we were in total misfit as well as opponents.

On the other hand 3NT was makeable. Preempter had Jxx Q xx KQT9xxx if i remember correctly.

[kemperb]

JLOGIC, on 2011-November-05, 04:12, said:

Anyone think pass is an option? I know, zomg spot cards and everything but if partner doesn't have 4 spades we only have 9 points and no club stopper and no fit* no 5 card suit opp a 14-16 NT, it could be best to pass, especially as no doubling has started yet.

*-Assuming partner bids 4C with 4-4 in the majors.

That being said, ZOMG, spot cards. They are really freaking good.

Pass if my choice too. The spots are only really important in NT, and who knows if we have a club stop? Even if we have one, can we take nine tricks before they run clubs? We have a max of 25 pts and no long suit; I'll bet we're underdogs to make game.

[diejowae]

Simple; Pass : North bid 3♥ after X 3♣is minimum and no 4 cards ♠( with 44 Major bid 4♣); if North 5 cards ♥, goodhand/max bid 4♥.

[nige1]

I like the MrAce/Gnasher/Rubensohl treatment. After 1N (3♣) ??

• X = Competitive
• 3♦ = 5+ ♥
• 3♥ = 5+ ♠

but what meanings would they suggest for other bids? e.g.

• 3♠
• 3N

And how would they vary this over other 3-level pre-empts?

[MrAce]

nige1, on 2011-November-10, 20:16, said:

I like the MrAce/Gnasher/Rubensohl treatment. After 1N (3♣) ??

• X = Competitive
• 3♦ = 5+ ♥
• 3♥ = 5+ ♠

but what meanings would they suggest for other bids? e.g.

• 3♠
• 3N

And how would they vary this over other 3-level pre-empts?

If u are going to play it this way (over 3 ♣) my suggestion is to play 3♠/3NT bids showing a legit hand to bid 3 NT one of them showing stopper while other doesnt. This makes sense to me because recently we all open NT with hands that actually has good pottential to play suit, especially when we learn their suit is out of our jurisdiction. That can be helpful if opener has some sort of 6322 5422 or even some 5431 hands.

I dont think we have this luxury over other preempts. I think best way to play over other preempts is to use DBL as negative. I mean over 3♦ we can of course build something starting with DBL=♥ xfer etc etc with artificial relays, but i dont think it worths it.

[gwnn]

3S =diamonds is reasonable too.

[han]

In our partnership we play after 3C:

3D = hearts
3H = spades
3S = diamonds
4C = diamonds and a major
4D = majors
4M = to play

After 3D:

3H = spades
3S = hearts
4C = clubs
4D = majors
4M = to play

After 3H:

Dbl = 4+ spades
3S = fewer than 4 spades, no stop
4C = clubs
4D = diamonds
4H = 6+ spades
4S = both minors, stronger than 4NT

After 3S:
4C = diamonds
4D = hearts
4H = clubs
4S = minors

It's a miracle that I remember it now. And a good thing too, because tomorrow is gametime!

[Trinidad]

See you tomorrow.

Rik