[Free]

This is a frivolous discussion, by all meanings of the words...

[rhm]

aguahombre, on 2011-August-28, 16:38, said:

This is where I don't understand the use of "non-serious" 3NT. Let's assume for a moment that 4m is a courtesy cue on this auction..a decent, but not mountainous 2/1 bid which wanted to be in game the whole time.

That leaves 3NT and 4H for the other two possibilities --very weak or very strong for the previous action. Why should we want to take up more space with the good one and stall cheaply with the bad one?

I would play "non-serious" 3NT only, if it suggests 3NT as a final contract, obviously not suitable for this hand.
If 3♥ is forcing you might want to warn partner that you have an unsuitable hand for slam.
The typical hand for that has weak trumps, a lack of aces and a preponderance of secondary side suit honors in a balanced hand.
The hands were 3NT will give you a top in spite of your 8 card major suit fit, because you have an excellent chance to make the same or more number of tricks in notrump. At Imps the benefit comes when this number is nine, often the case.

As long as I have no outside suit control and a void in partner's suit I would simply bid 4♥, no matter how much you strengthen the hand.
After all if I understand the bidding logic, even if 2♥ was not a game force, 2♥ must have game forcing values opposite a minimum 3 card raise.
So opener knows already I have something, just not suitable for slam. 4m is not a "courtesy cue" in this context, it shows interest in slam.
With courtesy cues you frequently stop in game having given a blueprint to the defense.

Rainer Herrmann

[rhm]

gnasher, on 2011-August-28, 18:27, said:

If we had an unlimited supply of bids available to us, I might use one of them to show that. As we don't, I prefer to use it for something which is more frequent and more likely to gain when it comes up.

I think you seriously underestimate the number of hands, which, after a major fit has been established, would like to suggest 3NT as a final contract.
Partner can always correct. Many computer simulations have shown how frequent 3NT is a superior contract to a major game when holding a major suit fit.
This is true even for IMPs, but particularly true for matchpoints. When major suit games go down, many do not even notice that 3NT might have made.
And on top let's not forget, 3NT is more likely to slip through, single dummy, than any other game contract.
Almost all these hands tend to be unsuitable for slam, though I admit there are a few hands, like here, which look unsuitable for slam and for 3NT.
With those really infrequent hands, simply bid 4♥.

Rainer Herrmann

[whereagles]

Rainer, while I definitely agree with you on paper, in practice it's very complicated to gauge when it's better to play 3NT with a major fit. Bidding space is scarse and 3NT is often the only bid available as a suggestion. That may not be enough to make an educated guess, so I'm not sure 3NT as proposal is the best use for it.