[jillybean]

KQ, AQ95, AKJ3, KJT

(1♣) X (P) 1♥
(P) ?

How do you proceed?

[menggq]

This strong hand sd force pd bid again anyway,so cue bid 2♣.1♥ was forced not free bidding so may hv 0-7hcp.

[Quantumcat]

Here is a list of what all of your bids would mean:

1NT = 18-20 balanced (1NT instead of double would be about 15-17 balanced)
2♥ = 13-16 with four or five hearts
New suit = 18-20 with five or more of the suit (an overcall instead of double would have been 11-17)

Cuebid (2♣) = none of the above
->2♥ = 17-20 with four or five hearts
->NT = 21+ balanced
->New suit = 21+ with five or more of the suit

So, you will cuebid (2♣) then bid NT.

When bidding hearts, the reason you can be weaker than the rest of the bids is that you have already found a fit and can't get stranded at a high level without a fit. When you are bidding a new suit you need to be stronger because you have not yet found a fit, and don't want to haveto get to a very high level while finding a fit and not have the high-card strength to justify it.

[tolvyrj]

Good problem where anything can be right, well not to pass .
Placing oppos high card strength aint hard question is does prd have enough entries, so that we would be able to put that information in good use.
I would also bid something that forces prd to bid once again. Not in great hope to become any wiser about the situation, though that aint totally impossible either, but buy some time to think .
After prd 2♥ , most likely, 4 ♥ seems the safest bet.

[jillybean]

What would 3♥ show? (1♣) X (P) 1♥ (P) 3♥

fwiw, if you bid 2♣, partner bids 2♥

[billw55]

I am simple minded. Partner would jump with 9+, so I just bid 4♥ to play.

[Quantumcat]

jillybean, on 2011-May-16, 19:26, said:

What would 3♥ show? (1♣) X (P) 1♥ (P) 3♥

Probably around 15-16 HCP and some good shape with five hearts. It is saying if we have a nine-card fit, I don't mind being in game with less than 25 HCP, if you like your hand (no wastage in their suit primarily). Also it prevents the passed hand from bidding 2♠ and having them find a save or a good spot to play.

Also never forget that 1♥ could be a three-card suit with a shape like 3325. You shouldn't reply 1NT to a takeout double unless you have about 9-11 HCP (unless your pard always has incredibly sound takeout doubles, in which case 6 or 7 HCP might be ok, and you can bid 2NT with about 10-11)

Quote

fwiw, if you bid 2♣, partner bids 2♥

Then 4♥. Partner will have four or five hearts and somewhere between 0-5 HCP. With more, he might have bid 3♥ (with five hearts) or another suit (with an unbalanced hand) or 3♣ with four hearts and a balanced hand and no club stopper.

You can't bid only 3♥ just in case he has only 0-2 HCP: pard will think you have about 17-20.

[cherdano]

jillybean, on 2011-May-16, 19:26, said:

What would 3♥ show? (1♣) X (P) 1♥ (P) 3♥

3♥ shows maybe around 17-19 points with 4 hearts, enough to strongly invite opposite partner's range, but not enough to insist on game.

On the actual hand, I agree with billw. Slam is basically impossible given the opening bid, and given partner bid only 1♥, and I will certainly insist on game.

[Quantumcat]

cherdano, on 2011-May-16, 22:05, said:

3♥ shows maybe around 17-19 points with 4 hearts, enough to strongly invite opposite partner's range, but not enough to insist on game.

You can cuebid then bid 2♥ with this. No need to jump: partner may have only three hearts, and we may not have found our best fit yet.

[cherdano]

Quantumcat, on 2011-May-16, 22:10, said:

You can cuebid then bid 2♥ with this. No need to jump: partner may have only three hearts, and we may not have found our best fit yet.

Once partner responds to a takeout double, it is not practical to cater for the rare case where he responded in a 3-card suit. Much more frequent is the case where takeout doubler has 3-card support and has to find out whether advances bid a 5-card suit, or has another 4-card suit. This is what the cuebid is used for.

Also, takeout doubler basically cannot have a hand with 5 hearts and 15-16 hcp, this hand would overcall, the only exception perhaps being 4=5=4=0. It's not practical to make agreements catering to two such extremely rare occurrences in a fairly frequent auction.

Edit: typo fixed thanks to Helene

This post has been edited by cherdano: 2011-May-18, 03:11

[Quantumcat]

cherdano, on 2011-May-16, 22:20, said:

Once partner responds to a takeout double, it is not practical to cater for the rare case where he responded in a 3-card suit. Much more frequent is the case where takeout doubler has 3-card support and has to find out whether advances bid a 5-card suit, or has another 4-card suit. This is what the cuebid is used for.

Also, takeout doubler basically cannot have a hand with 4 hearts and 15-16 hcp, this hand would overcall, the only exception perhaps being 4=5=4=0. It's not practical to make agreements catering to two such extremely rare occurrences in a fairly frequent auction.

Responding at the 1-level, partner has every likelihood of having a 3-card suit. If you are short in a suit, and responder did not raise, partner will probably have a few of them. And everytime they have 8 or fewer points they must find a suit bid. With a likely four to six cards in opener's suit, there are many hand shapes where he will bid 1♥ on a 3-card suit. E.g. 3334, 2335, 3325, 2326. (they might chose 1♥ instead of 1♦with three cards in each, if their hearts are good, to help partner with his lead if he ends up as opening leader).

You can assign any meaning to a jump to 3♥ you wish, but it doesn't make much sense to jump about when you can make a cuebid.

By the way, when deciding to overcall or make a takeout double, you should consider what you will do if responder pre-emptively jump-raises and it gets passed back to you. Will you be strong enough to make a takeout double? If the answer is no, then make a takeout double right away to lessen the chance of your side getting shut out. If the 15-16 that you hold isn't good enough for a takeout double after it goes for example (1♠) 2♥ (3♠) P (P) ? then you would certainly begin with a takeout double not an overcall.

[jillybean]

Now looking at responders hand, (you'll have to pretend that you don't know the overcallers hand)

J82, KJT92, T74, 42

(1♣ X (P) 1♥
(P) 3♥ (P) ?

[Quantumcat]

jillybean, on 2011-May-16, 23:35, said:

Now looking at responders hand, (you'll have to pretend that you don't know the overcallers hand)

J82, KJT92, T74, 42

(1♣ X (P) 1♥
(P) 3♥ (P) ?

Well, it depends what meaning you assigned to a jump to 3♥. If you assigned the meaning I suggested, opener has something like KT76 A8743 AQJ6 5.

You have a good shot at game opposite the above hand: you only need the one of the ♦K or ♠Q onside which is likely considering the pass by responder. So I would bid game. Although he might have some hands where there is no play, it might be a bit of a gamble.

(Oh, and in the play: if anyone is going to have all three cards it will be opener, so play the king of hearts first. Why? Responder has a maximum of five HCP which gives opener at least 16. If responder had five clubs they would raise no matter what. So opener must have at least 6 clubs. With 6+ clubs, 16+ points, and a void heart, he surely would have found a bid over 1♥!)

[manudude03]

Call me old-fashioned, but the point counts given seem very low. I would expect (1C)-X-(P)-1H-(P)-2H to be like 15-bad18, 3H good18-21. And yes, this is a 4H bid. Cuebidding auctions are awkward enough without shoving more hands into it.

[helene_t]

billw55, on 2011-May-16, 19:30, said:

I am simple minded. Partner would jump with 9+, so I just bid 4♥ to play.

Any finese rate to work so if p has an ace slam should have play.

I bid 2♣. Now if p doesn't encourage I bid 4♥ next.

[helene_t]

cherdano, on 2011-May-16, 22:20, said:

Also, takeout doubler basically cannot have a hand with 4 hearts and 15-16 hcp, this hand would overcall, the only exception perhaps being 4=5=4=0. It's not practical to make agreements catering to two such extremely rare occurrences in a fairly frequent auction.

You mean 5.

[gwnn]

4♥ indeed. We need inordinately much from partner to make slam. No need to cloud the auction with unnecessary cuebids and what not.

[Fluffy]

If we raise to 2♥ we are inviting to game. Partner is in the 0-7 range we won't raise him with 14.

2♥ shows 16-18 on this part of the world. Going to the 3 level with this range is insane.

3♥ shows 18-20 and usually 5 card support. A bit stronger with just 4 trumps.

Cuebid then bid a suit shows a different hand than jumping on a suit right now. It is stronger.


This hand is too strong to gather cooperation from partner the only avaible bid is 4♥ if you don't have gadgets to know how many cards partner has. I think there was a gadget to ask for heart lenght but I never played it.

[Fluffy]

jillybean, on 2011-May-16, 23:35, said:

Now looking at responders hand, (you'll have to pretend that you don't know the overcallers hand)

J82, KJT92, T74, 42

(1♣ X (P) 1♥
(P) 3♥ (P) ?

Obvious 4♥ I have the most important feature partner wants: entries for fineses!

[Quantumcat]

Fluffy, on 2011-May-17, 07:10, said:

If we raise to 2♥ we are inviting to game. Partner is in the 0-7 range we won't raise him with 14.
2♥ shows 16-18 on this part of the world. Going to the 3 level with this range is insane.

Law of total tricks says we are safe at the two-level with an eight-card fit. Plus you don't want to give passed-hand a chance to bid spades and have them find their 2♠ contract. 13-16 is fine. It is 13-16 and not 10-16 because you don't want to be going two off vulnerable at matchpoints, even if they DO have a game.