[Oren Goren]

I would guess the first item has come up before but "convention error" didn't find it for me. Apologies.

A. On the WJ2005 "convention card" the continuation of the 3S response to the opening 2D seems to be wrong. Should be "weak two in hearts", right? (yes, "trivial".)


B. The opening bid descriptions seem to show nothing available for 12 HCP and 4414.

So, please, what should the opener be?

oren

[TimG]

Oren Goren, on Dec 21 2009, 08:27 PM, said:

B. The opening bid descriptions seem to show nothing available for 12 HCP and 4414.

We never hold this shape. At least not in combination with that number of HCP.

I suspect the answer is to open 1♣.

[Oren Goren]

TimG, on Dec 21 2009, 09:13 PM, said:

Oren Goren, on Dec 21 2009, 08:27 PM, said:

B. The opening bid descriptions seem to show nothing available for 12 HCP and 4414.

We never hold this shape. At least not in combination with that number of HCP.

I suspect the answer is to open 1♣.

LOL.

Perhaps Poland's one and only ACBL-like restriction is no 4414 w/12 HCP?

[TimG]

13-17 with that shape are also trouble, aren't they?

[bluecalm]

Standard is opening 1D with any 4-4-4-1 shape with 4diamonds and 1C with exactly 4-4-1-4.
I don't know who made this convention card but it's pretty clear form any description of the system I saw (and I am from Poland so it's pretty obvious to me as I am playing polish club varietes all my life).

[Oren Goren]

TimG, on Dec 21 2009, 10:04 PM, said:

13-17 with that shape are also trouble, aren't they?

Hmmm.

It does have clubs so it is 11-14 HCP and 4414 that is trouble?

[Oren Goren]

bluecalm, on Dec 21 2009, 10:05 PM, said:

Standard is opening 1D with any 4-4-4-1 shape with 4diamonds and 1C with exactly 4-4-1-4.
I don't know who made this convention card but it's pretty clear form any description of the system I saw (and I am from Poland so it's pretty obvious to me as I am playing polish club varietes all my life).

It is the HCP condition combined with shape that leaves us no bid stated.

[bluecalm]

You should also open 1C with 4-4-0-5 shape and 11-14pc btw.
Jassem wrote about that case in wj2k booklet.
The reason is that you have easy rebid to any action of pd and you won't lose 4-4 major fit.
Theoretically you could be in trouble in sequences :

1C - 1D
1H - 2D (5-11pc, 5+D)

1C - 3D (here you have to pass and pray)

1C - 1D
1H - 3D (well.... pass again and pray even more)

but that never happens in practice

[bluecalm]

As to side note :

In some other versions of polish club if you have 4=4=4=1 shape you open 1D and you rebid 2nt in sequence :

1D - 2C
2NT* (4-4-4-1 exactly)
2D = 5D
2H/2S = 15-17, 5D-4M

with 4-4 minors (and 4-1 majors) and 12-14hcp or with 4diamonds and 5clubs you rebid 3C :

1D - 2C
3C (minimum, 4clubs)

This solution allows for precise auctions and is way better than this in wj2k version.

Also you may play 1D - 2H/2S as artificial (2H = 5S-4+H, 6-10pc and 2S = 6+clubs invitational is what Balicki-Zmudzinski play) which allows you to stop in 2NT is partner has dreaded 4=4=4=1 pattern

Unfortunately in wj2k 1D opening is 4+ which in my opinion sucks and just kills one of the advantages of polish club over standard (which is natural 1D opening basically always promising 5+ or sometimes 4 but then unbalanced).

[TimG]

Oren Goren, on Dec 21 2009, 10:19 PM, said:

TimG, on Dec 21 2009, 10:04 PM, said:

13-17 with that shape are also trouble, aren't they?

Hmmm.

It does have clubs so it is 11-14 HCP and 4414 that is trouble?

I'm not sure I get your point.

A hand in the 11-14 range that is 4414 can't be opened with 1♣ because the weak variety of 1♣ shows a balanced hand. 1♣ seems the best option, the lie that will likely work out best.

A hand in the 15-17 range that is 4414 can't be opened with 1♣ because the medium variety of 1♣ shows an unbalanced hand with at least 5 clubs. Probably best to also open this hand 1♣, once again the lie that will likely work out best.

Maybe I have missed something that is particular about specifically 12 HCP and 4414?

[TimG]

bluecalm, on Dec 22 2009, 07:34 AM, said:

In some other versions of polish club if you have 4=4=4=1 shape you open 1D and you rebid 2nt in sequence :

1D - 2C
2NT* (4-4-4-1 exactly)
2D = 5D
2H/2S = 15-17, 5D-4M

In WJ05, after 1♦-2♣

2♦ = five diamonds
2M = four of the major and four diamonds.
2N = four diamonds, balanced, no four-card major
3N = 4=4=4=1, 15-17

EDIT: corrected 2N, thanks to bluecalm

[bluecalm]

Quote

2N/3N = 4=4=4=1, 11-14/15-17
2♦ = five diamonds
2M = four of the major and four diamonds.

Not really.
While 2D is five diamonds it's in 12-17 range.
2H/2S are natural with exactly 4diamonds and 12-14.
2NT is natural without 4card major and with 4diamonds (12-14balanced).

I don't know what source you use. Mine is original wj2005 booklet.

Quote

A hand in the 11-14 range that is 4414 can't be opened with 1♣ because the weak variety of 1♣ shows a balanced hand. 1♣ seems the best option, the lie that will likely work out best.

Well... maybe that's according to that full disclosure cc but it has nothing to do with eithe wj2005 or with how polish pairs actually play.
(I mean it's not really a lie; 1c doesn't show balanced hand; it shows either balanced or 12-14 with 4-4-1-4 or 4-4-0-5)

[TimG]

bluecalm, on Dec 22 2009, 08:03 AM, said:

Quote

2N/3N = 4=4=4=1, 11-14/15-17
2♦ = five diamonds
2M = four of the major and four diamonds.

Not really.
While 2D is five diamonds it's in 12-17 range.
2H/2S are natural with exactly 4diamonds and 12-14.
2NT is natural without 4card major and with 4diamonds (12-14balanced).

Sorry, you are correct.

[bluecalm]

Still wj2005 is really bad.
If you have for example :
xx xx AJxx AKxxx

and bidding starts :
1D - 2C
????? you are in deep **** trying to show your suit and strength later because 3C is 15+ (and if that hand is too good then change it to something like : QJx x AJxx KJxxx)
Fortunately wj2010 is coming :-)

[TimG]

bluecalm, on Dec 22 2009, 08:03 AM, said:

(I mean it's not really a lie; 1c doesn't show balanced hand; it shows either balanced or 12-14 with 4-4-1-4 or 4-4-0-5)

WJ05 says of the preparatory 1♣: "With this variant of the opening it is 12-14 HCP balanced".

There is a later note: "I don't recommend opening 2♣ (Precision) with both 4-crd majors (4-4-0-5). Practice shows it's better to open 1♣, and bid on as if we have 4414 distribution." But, I cannot find any other mention of 1♣ including 4414 hands. How to rebid with 4-4-1-4, though rather straightforward, is not described (or at least I haven't found it).

[bluecalm]

Quote

But, I cannot find any other mention of 1♣ including 4414 hands. How to rebid with 4-4-1-4, though rather straightforward, is not described (or at least I haven't found it).

Yes you are right. There is nothing about that beside that later note.
The problem with wj2005 booklet is that it's meant as instrutction of how to go from wj2000 to wj2005. It's not really a comprehensive guide to the system but rather description of changes. Some things are just natural to any polish club player and they are not mentioned in the booklet.

Once a friend of mine (bridge newbie) wanted to learn the system (not a good idea) and he struggled with the simplest things like :
pass - 1S
2C = drury.
Pretty obvious for someone playing a lot but you really need to know what you are looking for to find it in the booklet. There is more situations like that with "obvious" (for polish players) situations.
WJ2000 was much better in this respect as it was more a comprehensive guide of how to bid using polish club. I am not sure if that book was translated to english though.

[TimG]

Was your reference to WJ10 in jest, or do you know of a project in the works?

[bluecalm]

There is even official poll for polish players regarding changes in wj2010:
http://ankieta.jassem.pl/

Unfortunately it's only in polish. I don't know when its due but I think it will be in 2010

[glen]

bluecalm, on Dec 22 2009, 08:31 AM, said:

... official poll for polish players ...

cute

[Oren Goren]

TimG, on Dec 22 2009, 07:37 AM, said:

Oren Goren, on Dec 21 2009, 10:19 PM, said:

TimG, on Dec 21 2009, 10:04 PM, said:

13-17 with that shape are also trouble, aren't they?

Hmmm.

It does have clubs so it is 11-14 HCP and 4414 that is trouble?

I'm not sure I get your point.

A hand in the 11-14 range that is 4414 can't be opened with 1♣ because the weak variety of 1♣ shows a balanced hand. 1♣ seems the best option, the lie that will likely work out best.

A hand in the 15-17 range that is 4414 can't be opened with 1♣ because the medium variety of 1♣ shows an unbalanced hand with at least 5 clubs. Probably best to also open this hand 1♣, once again the lie that will likely work out best.

Maybe I have missed something that is particular about specifically 12 HCP and 4414?

No, the 12 HCP was just an example. I was just elaborating on your post, having noted that "15+ Clubs" includes 4414. Hence it is 4414 and 4405 up through 14 HCP that isn't covered.

Bluecalm is telling us that those hands will be opened 1C (and that he hates the 4+ card 1D). So, don't know if it is the translator missing part of Jassem's description or what, unless Bluecalm tells us in a post I haven't read yet.

As to the 15+ clubs 1C, the definition in the WJ2005 file definitely says no. THE difference with WJ2000 is the change to 4+. I like this and the whole philosophy of WJ2005, which seems to be clarity and near-simplicity compared to other clubs.

I am working my way upwards on the openings chart so haven't seen the responses to 1C to know that the 4414 or 4405 hands are covered in the <15 HCP range.

Will see.

Thanks for joining the discussion!

oren