[Gerben42]

So Zia was playing a 12-14 2NT white vs red 1st seat with his partner at the Cavendish.

I can understand the rationale, after all they are not a regular partnership and his partner is not a super world class player like those who ended up at the top of the ranks. And for such a pairing, randomness is good.

But... How crazy is this opening bid? I can imagine the losses but what are the gains? (other than not having to deal with 12-14 NT hands in the rest of your system)

[se12sam]

Was there any additional in-built feature in the 2NT bid -- like a 5+club and/or at least 8 minor cards etc?

Otherwise it looks silly because it can be doubled often enough. If opps have 9 tricks (and can find them), Zia's side scores -800 instead of -600; and if opps have 10+ tricks, it's a debacle even if they drop a trick or two.

[hrothgar]

I once played the following:

A second seat white v red 2NT opening = 9 - 11 HCP

The primary reason that we were playing this was we were annoyed about the ACBL system regulations which had just banned 1NT opening with less than 10 HCPs.

The secondary reason that we were playing it was it got lots of folks all bent out of shape.

I like to think that I have matured (slightly) in the intervening years

[Gerben42]

Quote

A second seat white v red 2NT opening = 9 - 11 HCP

So how did it work out, other than angry mobs following you out of the playing area?

[hrothgar]

Gerben42, on May 11 2009, 02:48 PM, said:

Quote

A second seat white v red 2NT opening = 9 - 11 HCP

So how did it work out, other than angry mobs following you out of the playing area?

I found it problematic due to excessive numbers of directors calls

In practice, any time this bid came up, we'd have an auction like

(P) - 2NT - (LONG Tank) - Director!

I can't claim to have enough data to make an kind of valid conclusions about the effectiveness of the bid at the table.

[mtvesuvius]

I've been thinking about playing around with a system where 1NT is any pre-empt... I think it could work, but I'm not sure...

[whereagles]

That 1NT is, unfortunately, illegal in most jurisdictions. It does work well, though:

1NT ..?
2♣ = pass/correct
2♦ = inquiry (opener rebids 2NT = yuck, else shows suit)
2M = natural, constructive but NF
2NT = 4333-ish, preemtivish.
3x = natural GF.

An alternative would be 2NT...3♥ as transfer. If so, then it can be more wide ranging (as in weakish or strongish).

etc.

As for 2NT as 12-14... well, splitting remaining hcps as 9-9-9, opening side has an average of around 22 hcp, on the verge of making. It kind of crosses the border to the unsound side, but can work wonders with the right hands.

[uday]

Quote

Otherwise it looks silly because it can be doubled often enough.

I don't think it is anywhere near as silly as it looks, fwiw.

Advantages of 2N 12-14 at fav:

1. It will often shut out the opps bec. of the increased risk of acting against 2N
2. Many opps won't have a comprehensive 2N defence
3. Next hand must guess as to whether to act and will sometimes go for a number
4. It will free up the 1N opener/rebid for some other purpose
5. It will increase the volatility of the table results

Disadvantages:

1. It will often get the openers side too high, and/or to the wrong strain
2. It will sometimes go for a number where 1N would not have gone for a number
3. It will sometimes make opener look like either a visionary or an idiot
4. It will decrease the accuracy of constructive bidding after 2N
5. It will increase the volatility of the table results


This call came up twice on Vugraph while i was watching.

Once, responder with a flattish 11count with AKQxx of spades drove to a spade game and went down ( IIRC, no game was good and the other table, playing more normal methods, also got to game ). On the other board, they got to a reasonable but difficult-to-make slam ( probably like most others ) and went down when declarer mis-guessed the play.


To me this 2N call is one of a class of methods that underdog teams should routinely be using, but that is another discussion altogether Randomness is not always bad for underdogs but volatility is almost always good.


U

[whereagles]

You forgot one big disadvantage of the 2NT bid

Vulnerable, it goes:

2NT pass pass pass

Result: -2 vs nothing

[hanp]

uday, on May 11 2009, 11:27 AM, said:

Advantages of 2N 12-14 at fav:

fav = favorable.

[se12sam]

uday, on May 11 2009, 05:27 PM, said:

1.  It will often shut out the opps bec. of the increased risk of acting against 2N
2.  Many opps won't have a comprehensive 2N defence
3.  Next hand must guess as to whether to act and will sometimes go for a number
4.  It will free up the 1N opener/rebid for some other purpose
5.  It will increase the volatility of the table results

In the order of Uday's points:
2. I thought the table is required to provide a suggested defence to non-standard openings that opponents can refer. Does this bid not need one because it is "natural"? In any case, I would have thought most opponents will play "when in doubt, double" as a comprehensive defence
3. But by the same logic, opener will go for a number more often.

[helene_t]

uday, on May 11 2009, 05:27 PM, said:

Randomness is not always bad for underdogs but volatility is almost always good.

Aren't those two terms synonymous in this context?

[uday]

Quote

Aren't those two terms synonymous in this context

I was thinking more of "slam on a finesse" as being a random result ( random bec. of the location of the missing card ) and 2N as being a volatile action bec. it is likely to generate a swing ( in either direction).

I meant only that i believe that volatility is generally good for the underdog team. Volatility caused by random locations of stray cards is also good, of course.

[fred]

hanp, on May 11 2009, 05:52 PM, said:

uday, on May 11 2009, 11:27 AM, said:

Advantages of 2N 12-14 at fav:

fav = favorable.

I know that's what the original post said, but I am pretty sure that Zia and partner were playing 2NT=12-14 whenever they were not vul (though presumably not in 4th seat!).

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Gerben42]

Okay, I will test the method with a friend (but only 1st / 2nd seat favourable, I know we're chicken) and let you know when we have had some results with it, good or bad.

[rbforster]

Gerben42, on May 18 2009, 10:18 AM, said:

Okay, I will test the method with a friend (but only 1st / 2nd seat favourable, I know we're chicken) and let you know when we have had some results with it, good or bad.

Sounds good - let me know if I can help. I looked at weak balanced 2N in the past, but not that seriously. Don't forget to give some thought to what to use the extra 1N rebid for, so you count the other system wins too (rather than just those that happen after a 2N opener). For example, a simple natural system might be:

1m 4+ unbalanced (3+ only if 18-19 balanced)
1M 5+
1N 15-17
2N 12-14

Should make minor suits much more sound in competition. Plus, you get to stop in 1N after 1m-1M-1N which shows a stiff for partner so you don't have to rebid poor suits at the 2 level with (13)(54) shape if you don't want to (any suit response = good suits or extras). I guess you could have the 1N rebid be 18-19 balanced and try to stop low, but I'm guessing that's a more narrow target than my other suggestion (the common 1N with a misfitting and minimum 3 suiter).

[Gerben42]

We play Fantunes and will simply change 1NT to 9 - 11, I guess

In a standard system, you will have to put the 2NT openers somewhere, I guess in Multi. 1NT could indeed be unbalanced without a good rebid.

[Gerben42]

First 2 hands:

Weak 2NT, Hand 1

Don't know why 2NT was doubled, anyway 3♦ was not making, 3NT was close, maybe a bit too agressive Dbl

Weak 2NT, Hand 2

Missed game but perhaps this hand is a bit too good for a weak notrump... A Spade lead would beat 3NT, though.

[se12sam]

Gerben42, on May 19 2009, 09:34 AM, said:

Weak 2NT, Hand 1

Don't know why 2NT was doubled, anyway 3♦ was not making and neither was 3NT...

3NTx should have made? Declarer should have played North for the spade queen and taken a finesse at trick 7.

When this wins, he can place all cards correctly and play a heart to the King, and set up a long heart.

[Gerben42]

Weak 2NT, Hand 3

Here the 2NT forced opps to guess. 3♥ was the right contract, though... 2NT would not have been a success but only 50s

Weak NT, Hand 4

This is a good slam but the hand fits perfectly, would probably be hard to bid after 1♣-opening as well. Most of the field didn't bid it after a 15-17 NT either.
Still, serves me well for miscounting 15 as 14