[655321]

Cascade, on Feb 12 2008, 05:25 PM, said:

Pass is clear over this double.

Double even if 'takeout' at this level does not show 4+=4+ in the minors.  Therefore bidding with some minimum 5-4-2-2 hand is asking for disaster.

No.
Pass is clear if double is cards.

If by " 'takeout' " you mean cards, then yes, pass is clear.
But by " 'takeout' " I mean takeout: ie short spades, and support for the other suits. Passing with a good second suit and no defence is asking for disaster.

[rogerclee]

I think you are losing a lot if you choose to make x here "primarily takeout." I play that all doubles of 4-level preempts are primarily card-showing; whether this is a good idea over 4♣/4♦/4♥ is debatable, but over 4♠, it seems clear.

[Cascade]

655321, on Feb 13 2008, 11:44 AM, said:

Cascade, on Feb 12 2008, 05:25 PM, said:

Pass is clear over this double.

Double even if 'takeout' at this level does not show 4+=4+ in the minors.  Therefore bidding with some minimum 5-4-2-2 hand is asking for disaster.

No.
Pass is clear if double is cards.

If by " 'takeout' " you mean cards, then yes, pass is clear.
But by " 'takeout' " I mean takeout: ie short spades, and support for the other suits. Passing with a good second suit and no defence is asking for disaster.

I guess this is just a nomenclature or style thing.

We call our doubles 'takeout' or 'negative' with the condition that higher doubles are less shape specific.

If you don't like doubling with two or three spades there must be a lot of hands with values that you cannot bid.

[pclayton]

Jlall, on Feb 12 2008, 01:25 PM, said:

pclayton, on Feb 12 2008, 11:52 AM, said:

Double. Easier at other vulnerabilities. Prepared to scribble -790 on my private.

Someone once said, "believe your red/white opps"

Believing them means they have 10 tricks for their red/white 4S bid? I guess we should always save when they bid 4S red/white. I guess X should never be passed and should just get taken out every time since RHO always has 10 tricks...

Hey your buddy Bob says this. Complain to him please

[jdonn]

What is this problem doing here? Any bridge player would double on responder's hand and pass on opener's, regardless of the precise name they give to the double.

[pclayton]

Jlall, on Feb 12 2008, 07:19 PM, said:

pclayton, on Feb 12 2008, 09:12 PM, said:

Jlall, on Feb 12 2008, 01:25 PM, said:

pclayton, on Feb 12 2008, 11:52 AM, said:

Double. Easier at other vulnerabilities. Prepared to scribble -790 on my private.

Someone once said, "believe your red/white opps"

Believing them means they have 10 tricks for their red/white 4S bid? I guess we should always save when they bid 4S red/white. I guess X should never be passed and should just get taken out every time since RHO always has 10 tricks...

Hey your buddy Bob says this. Complain to him please

He also says to always bid 3N when it is a reasonable option, it is everyone else who mangles the interpretations of these rules and applies them incorrectly. My gripe is not the rule, it is the wrong application by intermediate players.

Justin, I'm inferring from your comments that this is a poor application of the rule I cited?

Please explain why you think Hamman's rule would not apply to this auction.

Or are you saying, just bid whats in front of your nose?

[fifee]

gwnn, on Feb 12 2008, 03:41 PM, said:

they made 6NT=

oh no, they just made a NV 6NT=.

pd had

Qx
KT98x
xx
KQJx

We will come closer to setting this if partner has a better opening hand.

[cherdano]

Phil, if your opponents know how to bid they don't know whether they make 4♠ when they overcall 4♠, no matter what the colors are. So believing them means believing them they don't know whether they are making, and our hand is an indication that probably they are not, and maybe we have a make on the 5-level if partner is shapely. The short version of the previous sentence is "Double".

[pclayton]

Arend - I think the principle means that someone who isn't a lunatic who bid 4♠ at these colors realizes the call is very likely to get doubled. Accordingly, RHO expects not to go down a whole lot. It doesn't mean that he thinks he is making, but it isn't a frivolous call either.

I can tell you that if I have certain players on my right, like Chris Larsen, who has the soundest preempts of anyone I have ever seen, I probably wouldn't double. He will not go down more than 1 I guarantee it, and its not like we have some big surprise like a trump stack.

In fairness as Patty says, pard doesn't have an opening hand. This is why as you say:

Quote

...believing them means believing them they don't know whether they are making, and our hand is an indication that probably they are not,

In other words, against a competent RHO, we won't have a hand we hold very often.

[cherdano]

Maybe Chirs Larsen would never do it, but I don't think it is incompetent to jump to 4♠ with KQT9xxxx x Axx x.

[whereagles]

it's completely routine to bid 4 on that hand... but whatever.