[Hanoi5]

---

After:

1NT Pass 2♥ Pass
2♠ Pass Pass Double
Pass 3♣ 3♠ All Pass

You lead the ♣K, continue with the ♣Q wich is overtaken by partner who continues with another club, on winnig the ♣J, what do you return?

[Hanoi5]

I forgot to mention the NT was 12-14 and the rpoblem is from a book, not for a book.

[pclayton]

Looks obvious to play a 4th club.

Pard would have discouraged clubs for a heart through, or played diamonds himself if that was right. He could be looking at a trump holding like ♠AJ (which he'd likely score himself unless declarer had xxxx).

[FrancesHinden]

You can't read too much into partner's choice of plays on the clubs, because when you led the king he couldn't overtake (in case you had led from KQxx), and if he is looking at, say, Ax Jxxx KQxx Axx he will want to cash all the clubs before one is discarded quickly on (e.g.) a heart. So he will not necessarily have switched immediately to a diamond before cashing clubs unless he had the AK.

Playing a club for a trump promotion looks to be a very small target. It needs him to have precisely AJ doubleton. Admittedly if he has AJ doubleton this defence is necessary now, becuase declarer has enough red suit honours to be making anyway... except that he might well finesse against the SJ given the auction.

So I think it's better to play a red suit. Which one? Well, what order did partner play his small clubs in, that might help.

I don't think there is an obvious answer to this.

[mikeh]

FrancesHinden, on Feb 7 2008, 11:10 AM, said:

You can't read too much into partner's choice of plays on the clubs, because when you led the king he couldn't overtake (in case you had led from KQxx), and if he is looking at, say, Ax Jxxx KQxx Axx he will want to cash all the clubs before one is discarded quickly on (e.g.) a heart.  So he will not necessarily have switched immediately to a diamond before cashing clubs unless he had the AK.

Playing a club for a trump promotion looks to be a very small target.  It needs him to have precisely AJ doubleton.  Admittedly if he has AJ doubleton this defence is necessary now, becuase declarer has enough red suit honours to be making anyway... except that he might well finesse against the SJ given the auction.

So I think it's better to play a red suit. Which one? Well, what order did partner play his small clubs in, that might help.

I don't think there is an obvious answer to this.

I could not have said it any better

I would add that I think there is a very, very slight edge to the heart through: partner cannot have AK♦, as Frances noted, and almost certainly won't have the ♦A either.... would/should have cashed it before leading the 3rd club, but has no option with AQ♥.

Edit: I would also expect partner to switch to the ♦K with ♥A and ♦KQ.. there is no rush to lead the 3rd club if he has that holding, so I won't expect that.. therefore, the best hope for 2 red suit tricks is the ♥AQ...

[cherdano]

I think the trump promotion is slightly better than Frances is giving it credit for, it might also work if partner has ♠J9. Still, it is a small target and very dangerous on many hands where have a normal set.

[FrancesHinden]

cherdano, on Feb 7 2008, 05:32 PM, said:

I think the trump promotion is slightly better than Frances is giving it credit for, it might also work if partner has ♠J9. Still, it is a small target and very dangerous on many hands where have a normal set.

yes, the trump promotion has a chance on any Jx (not just J9). But if partner has Jx of trumps and wanted to play for a trump promotion, he would often have cashed his red suit ace before playing the third club. So it's only right to play for a trump promotion opposite Jx when partner is sufficiently well stuffed in the red suits that he isn't worried about the R&D.

By the way, I think we played our clubs in the wrong order.

On the second round we should have given count and played the Jack. How did partner know that the third round wasn't being ruffed?

[ArtK78]

I disagree with Frances. If partner wanted to play a diamond after all of the clubs were cashed, partner could have just encouraged clubs but not overtaken until the third round and then played a diamond (or partner could have overtaken the club earlier and played diamonds immediately).

If partner wanted a heart switch, partner could have discouraged clubs. There is no heart holding that would require a heart switch by partner and that clubs be cashed out first. And, as there is no diamond holding that would require that partner switch to diamonds, the only reason for a failure to encourage clubs or overtake would be that a heart switch was needed.

So, the only choice left is to continue clubs hoping to create a trump promotion.

I cannot see why partner would play a third round of clubs if a switch to diamonds appeared to be necessary. Partner has no way of knowing that the third round of clubs would cash.

[ArtK78]

Jlall, on Feb 7 2008, 12:16 PM, said:

Am I the only one who plays count in this situation so I know how many rounds of the suit can be cashed?

Maybe not the only one, but it is certainly not clear that cashing clubs is the only priority on the hand. So giving count is not 100% clear.

[FrancesHinden]

Jlall, on Feb 7 2008, 06:14 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Feb 7 2008, 12:13 PM, said:

On the second round we should have given count and played the Jack.  How did partner know that the third round wasn't being ruffed?

How did partner know we didn't have KQx as well

Because we can't have four spades and we bid 3C over a take-out double

[FrancesHinden]

Jlall, on Feb 7 2008, 06:16 PM, said:

Quote

If partner wanted a heart switch, partner could have discouraged clubs. There is no heart holding that would require a heart switch by partner and that clubs be cashed out first.

Am I the only one who plays count in this situation so I know how many rounds of the suit can be cashed?

No, as you know I am from a British sect that plays king for count.

But know how many clubs partner had on the first round wouldn't have helped us that much, because we didn't know where the ace was.

That's why I think we should have played the jack on the second round. Now if partner wanted a heart switch through at once he can duck the second club as well. On the actual layout partner doesn't know the third club is cashing. It looks more as if he is just trying to be passive.

I suppose I'm convincing myself that he wants the trump promotion because he took the second club, if he didn't he would have ducked the second round as well.

[MickyB]

FrancesHinden, on Feb 7 2008, 05:13 PM, said:

By the way, I think we played our clubs in the wrong order.

On the second round we should have given count and played the Jack.

First time I've heard it suggested that playing the queen/jack here shows count, is it a standard thing?

I agree with the heart switch btw, no reason to play a diamond instead and the uppercut looks far-fetched.

[Free]

♥ is obvious, so it must be wrong...

[pclayton]

Look, its from a book. A club simply has to be right

[Cascade]

Hanoi5, on Feb 8 2008, 03:45 AM, said:

---

After:

1NT Pass 2♥ Pass
2♠ Pass Pass Double
Pass 3♣ 3♠ All Pass

You lead the ♣K, continue with the ♣Q wich is overtaken by partner who continues with another club, on winnig the ♣J, what do you return?

How did partner know to overtake the queen. Isn't standard here to lead the jack on the second round so that partner knows you have the KQJ whereas if you lead the queen on the second round you might have KQxx.

[Cascade]

FrancesHinden, on Feb 8 2008, 06:48 AM, said:

Jlall, on Feb 7 2008, 06:16 PM, said:

Quote

If partner wanted a heart switch, partner could have discouraged clubs. There is no heart holding that would require a heart switch by partner and that clubs be cashed out first.

Am I the only one who plays count in this situation so I know how many rounds of the suit can be cashed?

No, as you know I am from a British sect that plays king for count.

But know how many clubs partner had on the first round wouldn't have helped us that much, because we didn't know where the ace was.

That's why I think we should have played the jack on the second round. Now if partner wanted a heart switch through at once he can duck the second club as well. On the actual layout partner doesn't know the third club is cashing. It looks more as if he is just trying to be passive.

I suppose I'm convincing myself that he wants the trump promotion because he took the second club, if he didn't he would have ducked the second round as well.

If the third club wasn't cashing then partner would need to duck the second club to have any chance at a trump promotion.