[bglover]

Today for the 3d time in two weeks I booted a player because he accused me of cheating. In this particular incident my play was entirely logical and he simply failed to see it... I was in the process of explaining to him when he "strongly implied" the only way to come to the correct guess was by cheating. (In this particular incident, since I had the outstanding high trump I could afford to lead a suit likely to give declarer one pitch, as I know one pitch won't be useful, for what its worth).

These have been "world class" players (their designations) making these and it is frankly getting "old". Just because someone doesn't see the logic to the defender's (or declarer's) play doesn't mean there isn't damn good logic involved to begin with. These incidents have been increasing again of late and I feel strongly that BBO should implement a policy of immediately banning people who do it.

I hear daily of this happening to people and it's creating even more hostility on the site. Sure, we all know some cheating happens, and sometimes its even obvious. But that doesn't give people the right to bring out the "cheat" card everytime someone makes a good play and the accuser merely failed to spot it. I repeat, this should be a BANNABLE offense. I personally am getting sick of it.

[Trpltrbl]

I would suggest just to ignore them, make them enemies and ignore talk from them. That's just the problem of playing online bridge, people get away with a lot more.

Mike

[Free]

Why do you boot them? Just ask why they want to keep playing with you if they think you cheat. If you boot them, they will be certain of the fact that you cheat, weither or not you did. Just confront them with that question, put them to your enemy list and play on.

[uday]

Best yet to contact us - abuse at bridgebase .com

A cheating accusation is a large step forward towards being banned.

[inquiry]

Uday beat me to it... report the "accuser" to abuse@bridgebase.com

As an aside. If the play you made was "cheating", then i would be labelled cheater too because it is the correct play on that hand. Oh, and if you hadn''t played as you did, you would have ended up transposing the plays... your side would take two ♥'s, then get ♣A and ♣ruff. Just stupidly silly to compain about this. A world class player would have left partner's penalty double in.. and set you rather than the other way around.

Ben

[bglover]

Well I will report him...

The reason I put this on the board is that the FREQUENCY is increasing. I see it personally on an almost-daily basis and I hear of it every day.

People have got to stop this. It's a horrible practice and BBO and the rest of us must act to discourage this.

As to Freee's comment... I, for one, usually have several kibbitzers. If someone is going to accuse me of cheating in front of often more than 20 people I do not want that person at my table. That is how rumors get started... I for one ABHOR cheaters and don't want that taint anywhere near me.

After I have booted someone for making the accusation I always tell the entire gallery and table that I will not tolerate someone accusing me of cheating. I have a reputation to maintain and part of that includes some amount of integrity I hope. Nothing can bring that down faster than a cheating accusation and I will not tolerate it.

[dogsbreath]

I been playing a good while on BBO and never experienced this myself, tho have heard the stories. It never bothered me in the slightest.. i feel sorry for anyone who thinks they are improving their reputation or standing by cheating.. but i guess that now we some full-time/professional players and teachers on-site it may be necessary to adopt a more rigid approach re such claims, if only to protect reputations. BBO administrators have run this site well to date, so i support any action they think necessary.

[Booze]

Sadly cheating IMO is very common in tourneys, I have lot of examples where I suspect cheating , but its very hard to prove anything, in some cases it has been too obvious tho,

[keylime]

Isn't that the truth...I think there's a lot of "strangeness" going on lately in tourneys. Then again some of what I have been doing lately is strange because I'm still making Key Lime as good as possible...it's very hard without being invasive to prevent cheating, and with the advent of cell phones and cable/dsl broadband it's easier than ever to do so. It's been addressed before in other threads, but I simply wish people overall would exemplify intergrity like the pros we look up to to play in that spirit and not have it become down to the fastest typer or the smartest conniver. Remember the '75 Bermuda Bowl, it did a lot to propel this game forward to the screens and other devices we take for granted.

[Free]

It's always the same: wherever there are winners and losers, there are some cheaters as well...

[mishovnbg]

Hi friends!
About cheaters: one of the easiest way is to analyze same person play, thanks to "My hands" database. In my opinion in BBO they are few. When I meet posible cheating at table I ask about director and note about unusal play or bids. Later I look that person boards in "My hands" and soon the "picture" is clear, at least for me. Next step is avoiding to play against same person. When I must play against him, because of tourney, I am just very careful... But I will never say to somebody, that he is cheater!!! To do same against possible fair man is bigest mistake! And may be worse than cheating, because can ruine nice person... I think
same accusation must be interpret by "yellows" like any other restricted rudeness!
Misho

[Booze]

I know its very hard to prove that somebody is cheating , but cheating can be done in so many ways

Easy to prove

1. is falsebidding or alerts, missleading opps

2. Leads , unlogical leads , might happen , but not too many unlogical but always correct , I ve seen spectacular leads but correct of course :)

3. dont leading P suit ?? if it happens a lot , they have an agreement that should be alerted ,

hard to prove

1. hard bad correct bidding

2 always correct finesses and from top when correct, I watched one play from top and singel K falls with an 8 cards fit, and no reason to do it.

3 declaring against % but correct


IMO this is BBO biggest problem, cheaters dont only destroy for opps , I know a lot of players that says they never trust a pair from a certain country:(, thats tragic , I know personally a lot of good players from that country, cheaters destroy for all of us !!!!

I had to give up as Yellow because of this , esp when some other yellows say they dont care. As I strongly believe that accepting cheating will increase the number of cheaters, a lot of pairs will cheat as they see they dont have a chance if they dont do it and why do some advanced players level them self as beginners ??

The more incitament we give for winning a tourney the more cheating we will have.
Maybe tourneys where dancing or dating is more important then bridge is the only way ??

And should it be up to our poor TD:s to judge cheating ??

Bo

[inquiry]

I am uncertain as to whether reporting suspected cheaters to the tournment director is the right thing to do or not. For one thing, many of the directors are not equiped to judge if someone is cheating. For another, unless the director is a yellow, there is little the director can do. (well intentional mis-information and the like, they can adjust your score).

Instead, if you strongly suspect someone of cheating, report it to abuse@bridgebase.com. It might help if you include a few hands to support your allegations. DON'T tell all your buddies that your think player A or player B cheats, no matter how strong your belief that they do. It would probably help if you sent along "evidence" in the form of links to myhand pages of hands which you believe cheating occurs (and be fair, if there are hands in same event that prove they must not be cheating, then don't bother reporting them).

And as noted by STEVE in the original post in this thread, don't thow out random you must be cheating accusations at the table (essentially in public). If you do, the person getting in trouble is likely to be you rather the suspected cheater.

Ben

[bglover]

I must chip in again here...

I have quit directing any tourneys but TopFlight due to the ongoing and apparent cheating in BBO tourneys. It was a giant source of frustration for me to watch people do some of the obvious things they were doing and have so little power to stop it.

The best I could do was blacklist those I was pretty sure of from future tourneys and that would be the end of it.

The problem with tourneys is there are so many ways people can cheat (particularly in clocked events). The fact so many people were so willing to do it openly left a bad taste in my mouth quite frankly.

Now, with the advent of ACBL-sanctioned tourneys on BBO coming, this problem I fear will only worsen. I was an ACBL-certified director (no longer... my time ran out) and was asked by some of the other directors here if I wanted to direct some of these new sanctioned ones. My response was "I saw so much cheating when there wasn't anything at stake that I just cannot fathom the amount of cheating that will now go on; I want no part of this." His response to me was "Hey, you know they cheat, at least you'll be getting paid for your efforts"

I think anyone here who directs and is a tourney-experienced player sees what I saw. The problem is that so much of it is "unprovable" that you just have to accept it as part of the online game... Or, you can do what I did. Principles are a tough thing to live with, but I am not sorry I have mine.

[inquiry]

Well, winning seems to be too important to some players. I mean how pitiful a life they must have to cheat at on line bridge when playing for nothing. I suspect Steve is right, cheating will increase when ACBL points come into play, but again, what is some fraction of a point worth. What do you prove by cheating? That you are not good enough to play well without doiing it?

But if you spend all your time worrying about the cheaters, you will not enjoy the game as much as you should. Come to the BBO to have fun, to sharpen your own skills, to try out new conventions, to meet old and new friends. I see much to much emphasis on this person or that person cheats. When directing tournments, I have had only two people reported to me as "cheating." In one case, after reviewing myhand records, in my opinion the allegation was well founded and I sent the evidence to the abuse site, along with a dozen example hands I had found. In the other case, it was abundently clear from examining the hands of the partnership in question that they were not cheating (again in my opinion). Unlike Misho and Steve, I don't have a list of players I think cheat... just the one player, but it is probably because I don't look for cheaters. I worry about what I am doing and what lessons I can learn from each hand. Catching cheaters and worrying about if I am plus 2 imps for the day or minus 2 imps is not something I am interested in. I am always looking for the next interesting hand or trying out whatever new toy I am using.. current new toys are meta overcalls ala Misho, new minor by opener forcing, and mixed drury/2=1GF after first and second seat opening bids.

Ben

[Booze]

I guess situation is a bit different for Yellows, I hate cheaters and was a yellow , reports of cheaters and abusers made me sick , and in long run they will do a lot of harm at BBO!!! I guess we loose "good users" by not chasing cheaters

Bo

[uday]

It is easy to accuse someone of cheating, and sometimes people do this in ignorance of some aspect of bridge, or some aspect of our rules.

However, since yellows have the power to ban, yellows must walk carefully.

Do you think BBO should (all based on a small set of hands)

a) Suspend a player who might be cheating ?
or
Suspend a player who is probably cheating?
or
c) Suspend a player who is almost definitely cheating?


My current philosophy is "Innocent until proven guilty".

It is harder to prove that someone is cheating than one might think.

Yes, you might "know" that someone is cheating, but I think we should *know* someone is cheating before acting.

What is the answer? I don't know. My way, we let some (probable) cheaters remain online to cheat. More aggressive pruning would (probably) wind up suspending some innocent players.

[inquiry]

My personal view is Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. This is a very high standard indeed, given the bizzare bids and plays that go on at the table. Just yesterday I had the urge to open 3♦ on a piece of junk.... 2-2-5-4 hand with a ♦suit headed by the TEN, not vul versus vul. I choose not to do so. But imagine if I had, and I had hit partner with a ♦ suit as well. Would that not be "proof" (one hand proof of course) that I had cheated? Another time the day before I did open a five card suit (but of course a better suit.. I held KQJT8) at not vul versus vul.

Recently I defended as EAST with the following hand...

P-P-1NT-All pass

---

The opening lead was the ♠2 (fourth best) and when dummy played low, I did too. Declarer won the ACE and continued the ♠Q, I ducked again. After strugglng a while (he could still make it with lucky guesses), declarer went down and accused me of cheating for not playing the ♠K at trick one. But any bridge player can see that playing the KING can't win even if partner has ♠AQ as declarer always wins a trick, and can lose (as in this case)... I mean there sits the ♠JT-fourth in dummy for all to see. That isn't cheating.. dummy is after all exposed to all.

So I fully support the concept that the evidence has to be overwhelming before banning a player. But if after review you THINK he is cheating (rather than suspect or know), maybe someone should have a talk with the player in question.

Ben

[bglover]

Well... The point is that during tourneys peoples' behavior worsens beyond comprehension. Somethimes you "know" a claim was rejected or a hand was slow-played because the contract was a bad one but you can't prove it.

That is the nature of on-line bridge and the cheating that goes on with it. Sure, we all have witnessed players sitting at a table in the Main Lobby area who have played a number of hands in a fashion that seems improbable and we suspect they are getting information from a friendly kib or have a phone going. I'm sure that has happened to me on several occasions but I also know there isn't much one can do about it except keep an eye on him or her and see if it continues.

But, the stuff in tourneys is "different" because it encompasses so much more and is so much tuffer to prove. Ya, I "know" so and so rejected a valid claim cuz time was running out but I can't report it to BBO because there is no way to prove these things beyond a reasonable doubt. So, when I was directing open tourneys I just blacklisted everyone that I was pretty sure was pulling this kind of crap.

I did report a few to abuse due to extraordinary behavior that went beyond the realm of bad taste, but the reports weren't for cheating per se (altho I'm sure the behavior was meant to skew results and ruin the outcome). And, some of the people did get banned (and, thank Goodness, haven't returned that I know of).

But, to repeat from earlier, I saw enough "bad stuff" during my directing that I certainly was no longer interested in doing it. I couldn't resolve the personal conflicts it created within me, since I abhor cheating and knew that tourneys were fostering it (and other kinds of absurd behavior) that I just never saw before tourneys were instituted here.

[Trpltrbl]

I think that if you need to cheat to win at a game where nothing is to be won, is just the saddest thing ever. I would give them a rope and a chair and if they need somebody to kick the chair from under neat them, I volunteer.

Mike