[kgr]

Suppose you have agreed with you partner that:
1NT-2C
2D-3D
shows 4=4=1=4 hand ; some interest in slem.
Your partner now bids 3H which sets H as trumps and you bid 3S (1st or 2nd control).
You play not serious 3NT.
What is?:
- 3NT
- 4C
- 4D
- 4H
I would think?:
- 4H is weakest: something like KJx=QJxx=KJxx=KJ
- 3NT is not a good hand: something like KJx=QJxx=Axx=KJ
- 4C is cue and promises extra's: at least something like KJx=AQxx=Axx=Kx or AQx=AQxx=xxx=Kx
- 4D is DA and promises extra's, no control in C

[temp3600]

After 1NT - 2♣ - 2♦, opener has denied a four-card major, but the rest of your post suggest that you were thinking of a situation where the partnership has a 4-4 heart fit.
Is there simply a typo in the first sequence (1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ instead of 2♦), or did you mean something else?

[kgr]

temp3600, on Dec 23 2006, 12:07 PM, said:

After 1NT - 2♣ - 2♦, opener has denied a four-card major, but the rest of your post suggest that you were thinking of a situation where the partnership has a 4-4 heart fit.
Is there simply a typo in the first sequence (1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ instead of 2♦), or did you mean something else?

We play 2C is a transfer to D. Opener always has to accept the transfer and responder then describes his hand.

[awm]

How about:

3NT suggests a place to play. This is normally a hand with substantial values in diamonds which could easily play better in NT despite the heart fit. Responder can continue to cuebid, but has been warned about the unsuitability of opener's hand.

Kxx
Qxxx
KQJx
Ax

4♣ and 4♦ are cuebids. These tend to show very little wasted in the diamond suit (thus a generally good hand for slam):

KQx
KQxx
xxx
AJx

KQx
KJxx
Axxx
Qx

4♥ shows a hand worth less than 15 hcp once non-useful diamond values are ignored, and warns responder against slam (without suggesting 3NT is playable). This doesn't deny a control:

KJx
KJxx
Kxx
Axx

[Cascade]

In similar auctions we differentiate three hand types:

1. A hand with a lot of wastage in partner's short suit

In this case we sign-off immediately in game.

In your scheme this would be 4♥. Actually with this hand type we might not even admit to the heart fit in the first place. Our standard is with around three stoppers in the short suit we don't admit to the four-four fit in the first place.

2. A hand with a little wasted

Here we cooperate below game.
You might use a frivilous 3NT. Actually when we agree hearts we use a frivilous 3♠ and make 3NT the cue-bid in spades.

3. A hand with nothing wasted

We are expected to bid strongly with this hand. In your scheme you can make a serious cue-bid. And yes a cue-bid in the short suit should show the ace. Can responder have any other shape e.g. 4=4=0-5?

Our standard for opener to be in this last category is a minimum with nothing wasted in the short suit - not even the ace. This could be a maximum with the queen where we discount the queen and still meet the minimum requirement. The ace of the short suit pulls less weight so if we have this card we have agreed we need a maximum to show this hand type.

This is all essentially your idea with a little more definition.

Our auctions are different because we show our 4-4-4-1 hands in a slightly different way.

[mike777]

You said 3d...is a mild slam try but what is 3h besides accepting H? Can partner accept hearts in other ways to suggest other hand types? I will assume p bid of 3h shows more than some mimimum hand across from a mild slam try. I also assume 3d is only a mild slam try not a strong slam try? To be fair I am not even sure what your nt range is and if you open it offshape

[kgr]

mike777, on Dec 24 2006, 12:17 AM, said:

You said 3d...is a mild slam try but what is 3h besides accepting H? Can partner accept hearts in other ways to suggest other hand types? I will assume p bid of 3h shows more than some mimimum hand across from a mild slam try. I also assume 3d is only a mild slam try not a strong slam try? To be fair I am not even sure what your nt range is and if you open it offshape

We haven't clearly defined if 3H just sets H as trump or if it should show a bit more then a direct 4H. (I'll ask my partner) But I'm not sure if bidding 4H immediatly is a good idea as responder can be unlimited.
At least always bidding 3H first would make following bidding easier:
1NT-2C
2D-3D
3H-4C
Responder showed a good hand without a spade cue. This would go more difficult after:
1NT-2C
2D-3D
4H

[temp3600]

I think one of the first questions to answer (besides the difference between 3♥ and an immediate 4♥ by opener) is "do you want to still be able to play in 3NT after this start?"
Because responder has shown some interest in slam, and because of his singleton, I have the feeling that it is more useful to use 3NT as artificial, describing a certain type of hands for slam purposes, rather than to keep it as "to play"; but a simulation would give a much more definite answer.

[Cascade]

temp3600, on Dec 24 2006, 12:36 PM, said:

I think one of the first questions to answer (besides the difference between 3♥ and an immediate 4♥ by opener) is "do you want to still be able to play in 3NT after this start?"
Because responder has shown some interest in slam, and because of his singleton, I have the feeling that it is more useful to use 3NT as artificial, describing a certain type of hands for slam purposes, rather  than to keep it as "to play"; but a simulation would give a much more definite answer.

Of course you want to play 3NT sometimes:

♠ K x x
♥ K x x
♦ K Q J x x
♣ A x

What else do bid over 3♦?

On the other hand if you have nothing wasted in diamonds you could have a slam opposite not much so partner's 3♦ doesn't need to show much to be interested in slam:

♠ A Q 10 x
♥ A Q x
♦ x x x x
♣ A x

Has a good play for slam opposite

♠ K J x x
♥ K J x x
♦ x
♣ K x x x

[kenrexford]

I'd suggest that any sequence here be agreed upon in a way to facilitate the known parameters of possible pattern fits.

What I mean by this. One hand is known to be 4441. The other is known to be balanced. These are rather tight parameters.

If you assume a simple 4333 pattern, if you have agreements as to the LTC or LTC range for the slam invite, Opener can simply add up his cover cards and decide upon action. The difficulty, where cuebids are important, is when special cases arise. The special case of most import seems to be the honor doubleton suit, especially if a 5-4 fit has been located.

In other words, Ax or Kx offers one obvious cover card. Opposite Kxxx or Axxx, there is a second cover without expectation of a trick loss. Opposite Qxxx, there is an expectation of a trick loss.

Similarly, Ax, Kx, or Qx, opposite two top honors, may provide a similar cover for Axx or Kxx in a third suit, assuming a parallel Kxxx or Axxx from partner in that other suit.

I have not thought through how to facilitate this, but it seems logical to approach this specialized auction in this manner.

[mike777]

btw...I know this may sound silly but assuming this is not some standard bws issue...why play it? Is this a search for the golden goose?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

if 3H sets trumps, but you dont want
to play 3NT, you already did answer
your question regarding 3NT.

- 3NT is a suggestion to play there
with lots of values in diamond
- 4H is a sign of, with wasted values in
diamonds, but not a double stopper

- 3S, 4C are cue bids
- 4D a general slam try, kind of last train,
i.e. max. NT opener, no wastage in diamond,
all relevant suits stopped
The corrollar being, that 3S, 4C deny a control
in the other open suit

With kind regards
Marlowe

[temp3600]

Cascade, on Dec 23 2006, 08:45 PM, said:

temp3600, on Dec 24 2006, 12:36 PM, said:

I think one of the first questions to answer (besides the difference between 3♥ and an immediate 4♥ by opener) is "do you want to still be able to play in 3NT after this start?"
Because responder has shown some interest in slam, and because of his singleton, I have the feeling that it is more useful to use 3NT as artificial, describing a certain type of hands for slam purposes, rather  than to keep it as "to play"; but a simulation would give a much more definite answer.

Of course you want to play 3NT sometimes:

♠ K x x
♥ K x x
♦ K Q J x x
♣ A x

What else do bid over 3♦?

In the original post, opener bids 3♥ over 3♦, "which sets H as trumps", so he has 4 hearts.

My comment was about the meaning of 3NT after 1NT - 2♣ - 2♦ - 3♦ - 3♥ - 3♠ - ?, while you're thinking about 1NT - 2♣ - 2♦ - 3♦ - ?

[WrecksVee]

As 2♣ is a relay and 3♦ showed =4414 are all three bids available as such splinters? If so I suggest trying submarine splinters, one under the short suit. This idea is proposed by Ron Klinger in "Bid Better, Much Better Over One Notrump".

Klinger's idea is that the hand opposite the splinter can rebid three of the splinter suit to show a hand with little waste. This would depend on your NT range. Klinger used 13 working points writing from the viewpoint of a 12-14 NT. After that you agree on a fit and cue bid if extras are held. A rebid of 3NT shows a double stop in the short suit and suggests playing there. Any other bid setting a trump suit denies 13+ (or what ever is agreed).

Klinger suggests using this for any some what three suited hand (4441, 5440, 5431 without a five card major OR any single minor suited hand for which xx is enough support).

[kgr]

WrecksVee, on Dec 28 2006, 07:35 PM, said:

As 2♣ is a relay and 3♦ showed =4414 are all three bids available as such splinters?

yes

Quote

If so I suggest trying submarine splinters, one under the short suit.  This idea is proposed by Ron Klinger in "Bid Better, Much Better Over One Notrump".

I played this with my previous partner.

Quote

Klinger's idea is that the hand opposite the splinter can rebid three of the splinter suit to show a hand with little waste.  This would depend on your NT range.  Klinger used 13 working points writing from the viewpoint of a 12-14 NT.  After that you agree on a fit and cue bid if extras are held.  A rebid of 3NT shows a double stop in the short suit and suggests playing there.  Any other bid setting a trump suit denies 13+ (or what ever is agreed).
Klinger suggests using this for any some what three suited hand (4441, 5440, 5431 without a five card major OR any single minor suited hand for which xx is enough support).

We adopted a NT structure of another pair that I like. It is described in pretty detail and that makes it rather complex. Therefor I prefer not to change it for now. Thanks for the suggestion anyway!

[Cascade]

temp3600, on Dec 27 2006, 10:06 PM, said:

Cascade, on Dec 23 2006, 08:45 PM, said:

temp3600, on Dec 24 2006, 12:36 PM, said:

I think one of the first questions to answer (besides the difference between 3♥ and an immediate 4♥ by opener) is "do you want to still be able to play in 3NT after this start?"
Because responder has shown some interest in slam, and because of his singleton, I have the feeling that it is more useful to use 3NT as artificial, describing a certain type of hands for slam purposes, rather  than to keep it as "to play"; but a simulation would give a much more definite answer.

Of course you want to play 3NT sometimes:

♠ K x x
♥ K x x
♦ K Q J x x
♣ A x

What else do bid over 3♦?

In the original post, opener bids 3♥ over 3♦, "which sets H as trumps", so he has 4 hearts.

My comment was about the meaning of 3NT after 1NT - 2♣ - 2♦ - 3♦ - 3♥ - 3♠ - ?, while you're thinking about 1NT - 2♣ - 2♦ - 3♦ - ?

Oh ...

since you mentioned 3♥ and 4♥ I assumed you meant after 3♦. But my misinterpretation.

The standards i have are that we bid 3NT with around three stoppers in the opponent's suit but we don't admit to the 4-card support in the first place.

More generally we play frivilous 3NT (or some substitute) so we do not try and get back to 3NT. I am not sure how big the advantage is of being able to offer 3NT. Whatever it is is discounted by :

1. Partner removing to 4Major some of the time and us giving more information to the opponents

2. Our side having more space to investigate slam