[hrothgar]

Winstonm, on Jul 26 2006, 02:59 AM, said:

The thing I observe so much in this region is something I believe sociologists term tribalism.  It seems nationalism is relegated to second place behind the group of which you belong.  In Iraq we have the shiites, the sunis, and the kirds.  I do not know the Lebanon tribes but they must be similarly divided.

There is some truth to waht you are saying... "Nationalism" is often less significant than religious/clan/tribal identity.

Just to be clear:

The Sunni and the Shia are two different religious sects... There are also a number of different splinter groups (Allawi, Druze, Sufis, etc)

You also have differents tribes (in most cases tribes belong to a single sect)

Finally, you have ethnic groups. The Kurds are an ethnic group, as are the Turkmen yada, yada, yada

[mikeh]

What do Hamas and Hezbollah want?

My guess is that their wants are somewhat different, reflecting their different times and circumstances of origin. It is a mistake to lump them together.

Hamas formed the legitimate government of the Palestinian State. A triumph for democracy, one would have hoped.

Its leaders could not publicly back down from the radicalism that enabled it to grow and to differentiate itself from the older, more corrupt PLO. One of its main leaders, imprisoned in an Israeli jail, has worked out a tentative plan for an informal alliance with Fatah, and that plan tacitly recogonizes Israel's right to exist. To expect more than that from any Palestinian political group is probably unrealistic... give that approach a few years.. maybe a generation or two.. and maybe the next generation of leaders will be able to further lessen the overt threats.

By the way, for those who say that Hamas could and should have publicly abandoned a key platform in their manifesto, consider how western politicians also tend to publicly proclaim fervent belief in a certain position (in order to rally their 'base') while making absolutely sure that nothing gets done. The Republican party could have overriden Roe v Wade, for example, but no serious Republican politician wants that to happen. Roe v Wade keeps the money flowing in from the religious right and keeps the voters oming out to vote... outlawing abortion would have precisely the opposite effect... the religious right would become more complacent as the main source of their outrage was removed while pro-choice forces would become massively energized.

Israel could have enhanced that prospect by tacitly allowing Hamas a chance to do that which it pledged itself to do internally... clean up the corruption and begin to build an economy. Could they have done it? Who knows. But the reality is that Israel, backed by the US, cut off the supply of funds needed to keep even their rudimentary state operating.

Yes, Hamas was 'pledged' to the destruction of Israel, but does anyone really think that they would have done anything about it?

Yes, Hamas is a 'terrorist' group by some definitions, altho (as far as I know) they have never gone beyond attacks on Israelis... In saying that, I am not condoning nor approving of those attacks, but trying to point out that there is a disturbing trend, especially among Americans, of lumping a lot of disparate people into the 'terrorist' camp and then treating them as if they all report to or obey Osama bin Laden. In actuality, my understanding is that, for example, Hezbollah has publicly proclaimed that they do not see the US as their enemy, and they come predominantly from the opposite side of the Shia/Sunni divide within Islam.

Hezbollah is in many ways similar to Hamas and has attempted, with success, to participate in the democratic process in Lebanon. We can debate all we want about the legitimacy of the invasion of Lebanon by Israel 20+ years ago, but the reality is that that invasion, along with the massacres carried out by Israeli supported militia, either created Hezbollah or at least led to its growth and power.

If any of us were Palestinian or Southern, non-Christain Lebanese, I suspect that we would see Israel in a light far different that is shone on it by western media.

I repeat: this is not to condone the provocations issued by either organization. But provocation and response have gone on for so many years, that it is foolish to say that any single action now is an originator of a response.. whatever action we choose has been preceded by tit-for-tat for decades.

And, one final point so often overlooked by those who condemn any group that the US government labels as terrorists, both Israel and the USA were founded by people who mounted armed campaigns against lawful authority in order to overthrow such authority. I do not know enough about the American Revolution to know if the founding fathers, or their followers, committed acts that, had they lost, would now be viewed as acts of terrorism, but I do know enough about the founding of Israel to state that proposition with conviction. The founders of the Israeli state, many of whom went on to serve in government and to become famous and revered (at least in Israel) were gunmen, assassins and bombers who blew up police stations, ambushed soldiers and police officers and generally acted as terrorists in a succesful campaign to persuade the Mandated Power to leave... with the almost immediate outcome of the highly-encouraged, if not forced, removal of a large proportion of the Palestinian population... a population that could trace its use and ownership of lands back for hundreds of years... forced to go to live, for almost 60 years now (no end in sight) in refugee camps.

So todays terrorist may be tomorrow's founding father.... history is written by the winner.

Is this a good thing? No. Would the world be better if Hamas and Hezbollah renounced violence? Yes. Is Israel morally perfect? No.. Is my post overly simplistic? Yes.. but whose isn't... who can truly analyze what's going on and has gone on in anything less than a massive book.

[luke warm]

Winstonm, on Jul 25 2006, 07:05 PM, said:

Suppose a group of nomadic peoples invaded and took over Louisiana, forcing all the citizens to take up residency in other nearby states, meanwhile losing their homes, their cars, their jobs, their way of life.  Then the group who took over La. threw down their arms and said, O.K. le't have peace now.  Would you still feel the same way?

well in the case of israel, a little history and context might be in order... the u.n. divided the land into 2 sections and gave half to israel as a homeland... some in the area objected, and 5 countries attacked the new state... as a result, israel (who by all accounts would have been happy with what they received) gained a substantially larger bit of land

there has always, it seems, been strife in that area and always will be... this lasts until finally (if one believes as i do) almost all countries on earth join together to wage war against israel... i hope the u.s. is not a part of that pact, but i don't know for sure... this war also will result in failure for the aggressors, but not in the way we might think

[Winstonm]

luke warm, on Jul 25 2006, 07:30 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Jul 25 2006, 07:05 PM, said:

Suppose a group of nomadic peoples invaded and took over Louisiana, forcing all the citizens to take up residency in other nearby states, meanwhile losing their homes, their cars, their jobs, their way of life.  Then the group who took over La. threw down their arms and said, O.K. le't have peace now.  Would you still feel the same way?

well in the case of israel, a little history and context might be in order... the u.n. divided the land into 2 sections and gave half to israel as a homeland... some in the area objected, and 5 countries attacked the new state... as a result, israel (who by all accounts would have been happy with what they received) gained a substantially larger bit of land

there has always, it seems, been strife in that area and always will be... this lasts until finally (if one believes as i do) almost all countries on earth join together to wage war against israel... i hope the u.s. is not a part of that pact, but i don't know for sure... this war also will result in failure for the aggressors, but not in the way we might think

Jimmy. Please don't confuse me with the facts. My mind is made up. However, I'm not so sure it was this cut and dried. I'm not a history buff and wasn't around when this occurred, but from what I understand there was quite a lot of conflict before the division, and the pre-Israelites were doing their fare share of terrorist acts against Palestine. The U.N. measure was an attempt to instill peace and order in the region - and worked as well as most U.N. operations.

[hrothgar]

[quote name='Winstonm' date='Jul 26 2006, 04:11 AM'] [quote name='luke warm' date='Jul 25 2006, 07:30 this lasts until finally (if one believes as i do) almost all countries on earth join together to wage war against israel... i hope the u.s. is not a part of that pact, but i don't know for sure... this war also will result in failure for the aggressors, but not in the way we might think [/QUOTE']
Jimmy. Please don't confuse me with the facts. [/quote]
Jimmy is quoting from the book of Revelations as if it were true and you're accusing him of confusing you with "facts"....

[Winstonm]

Quote

Jimmy is quoting from the book of Revelations as if it were true and you're accusing him of confusing you with "facts"....

I knew that....just the part about the U.N. separating the land...fact?

[luke warm]

Winstonm, on Jul 25 2006, 09:25 PM, said:

Quote

Jimmy is quoting from the book of Revelations as if it were true and you're accusing him of confusing you with "facts"....

I knew that....just the part about the U.N. separating the land...fact?

i just looked here, and while i didn't go into detail that's kinda what happened... and yes, there was already fighting in the area

[mike777]

From Fouad Siniora Prime Minister of Lebanon.

"...root causes of this war-Israeli occupation of Lebanese territories and its perennial threat to Lebanon security...

...A political solution cannot, however, be implemented as long as Israel continues to occupy Arab land in Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank and the Syrian Golan Heights and as long as it wages war on innocent people in Lebanon and Palestine.....


...we demand an international inquiry into Israel's criminal actions in Lebanon and insist that Israel pay compensation for its wanton destruction...Israel responded by slaughtering more civilians in the town of Qana....."

[rona_]

Mike what would you like him to say? Lebanon is not a Muslim country. (Not yet anyway). The President is by constitution a Christian of the Maronite Sect and the Prime Minister a Sunni Muslim. They haven't had a census there for many years but the Muslims are definitely the majority of the population. Siniora is trying to find a way to peace in his country without starting another civil war.

[mike777]

rona_, on Aug 11 2006, 04:17 PM, said:

Mike what would you like him to say?  Lebanon is not a Muslim country. (Not yet anyway). The President is by constitution a Christian of the Maronite Sect and the Prime Minister a Sunni Muslim. They haven't had  a census there for many years but the Muslims are definitely the majority of the population. Siniora is trying to find a way to peace in his country without starting another civil war.

So you argue for appeasement, that is your point? Peace at all costs?
Create a country where you live in fear of saying what you really mean, that is your point? This sounds just like a argument for living in fear your whole life.

Again a false dichotomy the choice is not between Peace or War; it is between War now or war later and stick your head in the sand for now....

[Walddk]

Some might find this interesting. A speech delivered by Ehud Olmert, the Prime Minister of Israel, on July 31:

.....

Ladies and gentlemen, leaders of the world. I, the Prime Minister of Israel, am speaking to you from Jerusalem in the face of the terrible pictures from Kfar Kana. Any human heart, wherever it is, must sicken and recoil at the sight of such pictures. There are no words of comfort that can mitigate the enormity of this tragedy. Still, I am looking you straight in the eyes and telling you that the State of Israel will continue its military campaign in Lebanon.

The Israel Defense Forces will continue to attack targets from which missiles and Katyusha rockets are fired at hospitals, old age homes and kindergartens in Israel. I have instructed the security forces and the IDF to continue to hunt for the Katyusha stockpiles and launch sites from which these savages are bombarding the State of Israel.

We will not hesitate, we will not apologize and we will not back off. If they continue to launch missiles into Israel from Kfar Kana, we will continue to bomb Kfar Kana.

Today, tomorrow and the day after tomorrow. Here, there and everywhere. The children of Kfar Kana could now be sleeping peacefully in their homes, unmolested, had the agents of the devil not taken over their land and turned the lives of our children into hell.

Ladies and gentlemen, it's time you understood: the Jewish state will no longer be trampled upon. We will no longer allow anyone to exploit population centers in order to bomb our citizens. No one will be able to hide anymore behind women and children in order to kill our women and children. This anarchy is over. You can condemn us, you can boycott us, you can stop visiting us and, if necessary, we will stop visiting you.

Today I am serving as the voice of six million bombarded Israeli citizens who serve as the voice of six million murdered Jews who were melted down to dust and ashes by savages in Europe. In both cases, those responsible for these evil acts were, and are, barbarians devoid of all humanity, who set themselves one simple goal: to wipe the Jewish race off the face of the earth, as Adolf Hitler said, or to wipe the State of Israel off the map, as Mahmoud Ahmedinjad proclaims.

And you - just as you did not take those words seriously then, you are ignoring them again now. And that, ladies and gentlemen, leaders of the world, will not happen again. Never again will we wait for bombs that never came to hit the gas chambers. Never again will we wait for salvation that never arrives.

Now we have our own air force. The Jewish people are now capable of standing up to those who seek their destruction – those people will no longer be able to hide behind women and children. They will no longer be able to evade their responsibility.

Every place from which a Katyusha is fired into the State of Israel will be a legitimate target for us to attack. This must be stated clearly and publicly, once and for all. You are welcome to judge us, to ostracize us, to boycott us and to vilify us. But to kill us? Absolutely not.

Four months ago I was elected by hundreds of thousands of citizens to the office of Prime Minister of the government of Israel, on the basis of my plan for unilaterally withdrawing from 90 percent of the areas of Judea and Samaria, the birth place and cradle of the Jewish people; to end most of the occupation and to enable the Palestinian people to turn over a new leaf and to calm things down until conditions are ripe for attaining a permanent settlement between us.

The Prime Minister who preceded me, Ariel Sharon, made a full withdrawal from the Gaza Strip back to the international border, and gave the Palestinians there a chance to build a new reality for themselves. The Prime Minister who preceded him, Ehud Barak, ended the lengthy Israeli presence in Lebanon and pulled the IDF back to the international border, leaving the land of the cedars to flourish, develop and establish its democracy and its economy.

What did the State of Israel get in exchange for all of this? Did we win even one minute of quiet? Was our hand, outstretched in peace, met with a handshake of encouragement? Ehud Barak's peace initiative at Camp David let loose on us a wave of suicide bombers who smashed and blew to pieces over 1,000 citizens, men, women and children. I don't remember you being so enraged then.

Maybe that happened because we did not allow TV close-ups of the dismembered body parts of the Israeli youngsters at the Dolphinarium? Or of the shattered lives of the people butchered while celebrating the Passover seder at the Park Hotel in Netanya? What can you do - that's the way we are. We don't wave body parts at the camera. We grieve quietly.

We do not dance on the roofs at the sight of the bodies of our enemy's children - we express genuine sorrow and regret. That is the monstrous behavior of our enemies. Now they have risen up against us. Tomorrow they will rise up against you. You are already familiar with the murderous taste of this terror. And you will taste more.

And Ariel Sharon's withdrawal from Gaza. What did it get us? A barrage of Kassem missiles fired at peaceful settlements and the kidnapping of soldiers. Then too, I don't recall you reacting with such alarm. And for six years, the withdrawal from Lebanon has drawn the vituperation and crimes of a dangerous, extremist Iranian agent, who took over an entire country in the name of religious fanaticism and is trying to take Israel hostage on his way to Jerusalem - and from there to Paris and London.

An enormous terrorist infrastructure has been established by Iran on our border, threatening our citizens, growing stronger before our very eyes, awaiting the moment when the land of the Ayatollahs becomes a nuclear power in order to bring us to our knees. And make no mistake - we won't go down alone. You, the leaders of the free and enlightened world, will go down along with us.

So today, here and now, I am putting an end to this parade of hypocrisy. I don't recall such a wave of reaction in the face of the 100 citizens killed every single day in Iraq. Sunnis kill Shiites who kill Sunnis, and all of them kill Americans - and the world remains silent.

And I am hard pressed to recall a similar reaction when the Russians destroyed entire villages and burned down large cities in order to repress the revolt in Chechenya. And when NATO bombed Kosovo for almost three months and crushed the civilian population - then you also kept silent. What is it about us, the Jews, the minority, the persecuted, that arouses this cosmic sense of justice in you? What do we have that all the others don't?

In a loud clear voice, looking you straight in the eyes, I stand before you openly and I will not apologize. I will not capitulate. I will not whine.

This is a battle for our freedom. For our humanity. For the right to live normal lives within our recognized, legitimate borders. It is also your battle. I pray and I believe that now you will understand that.

Because if you don't, you may regret it later, when it's too late.
 

[Aberlour10]

There is an appeal in the lobby to keep the politics out of BBO, do we support it with all these threads here? I don't think so.

Robert

[Walddk]

Aberlour10, on Aug 12 2006, 12:32 AM, said:

There is an appeal in the lobby to keep the politics out of BBO, do we support it with all these threads here? I don't think so.

Robert

Not only do we not support political manifestations in the lobby; they are against the Rules of this Site. The same applies to political views in player profiles.

Threads in the BBO Forums are a different ballgame altogether. Almost anything is allowed in the Water Cooler, although Uday earlier has expressed doubts.

Roland

[hrothgar]

Walddk, on Aug 12 2006, 01:15 AM, said:

So today, here and now, I am putting an end to this parade of hypocrisy. I don't recall such a wave of reaction in the face of the 100 citizens killed every single day in Iraq. Sunnis kill Shiites who kill Sunnis, and all of them kill Americans - and the world remains silent.

And I am hard pressed to recall a similar reaction when the Russians destroyed entire villages and burned down large cities in order to repress the revolt in Chechenya.

I'd like to bring up a simple analogy:

Why does the world focus such attention on the Shoah while ignoring mass killings in the Soviet Union or the Killing Fields in Cambodia. The difference isn't related to the specific nature of the victims; Rather we are horrified because the Holocaust was committed by Germans. Simple put, there is a double standard. One expects more of from the land of Goethe than one does of the Russians. In a similar fashion, the Israeli's get held to a higher standard because one hopes that they are a civilized people.

The Israeli's better pray each and every day that folks continue to hold this double standard. The world happily sat by and watched hundred's of thousands of Tutsui and Hutus hack each other apart with machetes not 20 years back. In a similar fashion, the US sold chemicals weapons to Saddam. We didn't really care much because he was only targetting Irans and Kurds and they don't count.

They day that the West stops expecting "more" from the Israelis is the day the Americans stop expediting the delivery of your air force's jet fuel and the clusters bombs that you rain down on your neighbors. We'll start treating you just like we treat everyone else. Trust me when I suggest that you won't like that...

[rona_]

Yes we are used to the speeches and apologies by now. Israel is deeply deeply sorry for the unfortunate loss of civilian life..and boom within the next few minutes another civilian building has been levelled and 30 civilians dead. No one buys their stories anymore. I don't like Hezbollah but at least they're don't pretend to be sorry for what they have done. Let's face it. I think Israel is a terrorist state, they have had 3 prime ministers that I think are terrorists, hezbollah and hamas are also terrorists in my view. Ariel Sharon masterminded the Sabra and Shatila massacres in 1982 in Lebanon and guarded the Palestinian camps while the Phalangists (a Lebanese militia group), executed a few thousand palestinian refugees. Posting that speech here is in bad taste. I am not siding with anyone, I just think that one-sided propaganda speeches shouldn't be posted here. This is supposed to be a forum for friendly discussion and not for Zionist or Arab propaganda. How about some history instead . Tell readers about the Balfour Declaration in 1917, how the state of Israel was created, why Hezbollah was created etc.

[rona_]

Quote

Group: Members
Posts: 2360
Member No.: 945
Joined: 30-September 03




QUOTE (Aberlour10 @ Aug 12 2006, 12:32 AM)
There is an appeal in the lobby to keep the politics out of BBO, do we support it with all these threads here? I don't think so.

Robert

Not only do we not support political manifestations in the lobby; they are against the Rules of this Site. The same applies to political views in player profiles.

Threads in the BBO Forums are a different ballgame altogether. Almost anything is allowed in the Water Cooler, although Uday earlier has expressed doubts.

Roland

Everthing should be allowed except intentional propaganda.

[Walddk]

rona_, on Aug 12 2006, 12:48 AM, said:

Yes we are used to the speeches and apologies by now. Israel is deeply deeply sorry for the unfortunate loss of civilian life..and boom within the next few minutes another civilian building has been levelled and 30 civilians dead. No one buys their  stories anymore. I don't like Hezbollah but at least they're don't  pretend to be sorry for what they have done.  Let's face it. Israel is a terrorist state,  they have had 3 prime ministers that were terrorists,  hezbollah and hamas are also  terrorists in my view.  Ariel Sharon masterminded the Sabra and Shatila massacres in 1982 in Lebanon and guarded the Palestinian camps while the Phalangists (a Lebanese militia group), executed a few thousand palestinian refugees. Posting that speech here is in bad taste.  I am not siding with anyone, I just think that one-sided propaganda speeches shouldn't be posted here. This is supposed to be a forum for friendly discussion and not for Zionist or Arab propaganda. How about some history instead . Tell readers about the Balfour Declaration in 1917, how the state of Israel was created, why Hezbollah was created etc.

Rest assured that you will be the first to know if I want your opinion as to what's appropriate to write or not write in the forums. I didn't even express my view. It was a 100% correct quote, and I find it interesting, whether you like it or not.

"Israel is a terrorist state", you write. I do not agree, but you are certainly entitled to think and write what you want. Perhaps you would allow others to do the same?

"I am not siding with anyone", is truly hilarious when you claim that the Israelis are terrorists and say nothing about what some of their neighbours are.

Roland

[luke warm]

rona_, on Aug 11 2006, 05:48 PM, said:

Yes we are used to the speeches and apologies by now. Israel is deeply deeply sorry for the unfortunate loss of civilian life..and boom within the next few minutes another civilian building has been levelled and 30 civilians dead. No one buys their  stories anymore. I don't like Hezbollah but at least they're don't  pretend to be sorry for what they have done.  Let's face it. Israel is a terrorist state,  they have had 3 prime ministers that were terrorists,  hezbollah and hamas are also  terrorists in my view.  Ariel Sharon masterminded the Sabra and Shatila massacres in 1982 in Lebanon and guarded the Palestinian camps while the Phalangists (a Lebanese militia group), executed a few thousand palestinian refugees. Posting that speech here is in bad taste.  I am not siding with anyone, I just think that one-sided propaganda speeches shouldn't be posted here. This is supposed to be a forum for friendly discussion and not for Zionist or Arab propaganda. How about some history instead . Tell readers about the Balfour Declaration in 1917, how the state of Israel was created, why Hezbollah was created etc.

it's true, rona, that we can go further and further back in history, but to what end? it's my view (from a worldly standpoint) that if hezbollah, or hamas, or any other country lauches attacks from population centers they should not be shocked when there is a counter attack on those same centers

what olmert said is true... hamas broke the peace by killing and kidnapping soldiers, across the border - a border they seemingly no longer want or need... hezbollah did the same... in america we have our own fringe terrorists, yet the vast majority here have no qualms with crushing them when and where they rear their heads...

maybe richard is correct that the world holds israel to a higher standard... that's all well and good, but an enemy who uses another's standards against them (and uses its own women and children as shields because of a fear to fight otherwise) can't be given carte blanche

the part of your post that i personally found the most objectionable was this, "I don't like Hezbollah but at least they're don't pretend to be sorry for what they have done." ... that sounds as if it's somehow better to be an unabashed aggressor than a reluctant responder

[rona_]

Quote

Not only do we not support political manifestations in the lobby; they are against the Rules of this Site. The same applies to political views in player profiles.

Threads in the BBO Forums are a different ballgame altogether. Almost anything is allowed in the Water Cooler, although Uday earlier has expressed doubts.

Roland

Who is WE anyway..are you part of the bbo management now?

You are welcome to your opinion that Israel isn't a terrorist state just as I am happy to state that I think they are and so are Hez and Hamas. There are many speeches that I could post here that are one-sided, however I don't feel it's fair to do so. Goodnight. Oh and before I go just remind Bush not to insist on democratic elections in Egypt because then whoops, here comes the Moslem Brotherhood with 70 million inhabitants and counting.

[Walddk]

[quote name='rona_' date='Aug 12 2006, 12:52 AM'] Group: Members
Posts: 2360
Member No.: 945
Joined: 30-September 03




QUOTE (Aberlour10 @ Aug 12 2006, 12:32 AM)
There is an appeal in the lobby to keep the politics out of BBO, do we support it with all these threads here? I don't think so.

Robert

Not only do we not support political manifestations in the lobby; they are against the Rules of this Site. The same applies to political views in player profiles.

Threads in the BBO Forums are a different ballgame altogether. Almost anything is allowed in the Water Cooler, although Uday earlier has expressed doubts.

Roland [/QUOTE]


Everthing should be allowed except intentional propaganda. [/quote]
Since you have taken bits from my profile, it would be interesting to know if you think I have written 2360 posts of intentional propaganda.

Roland