[1eyedjack]

I gotta say, that whatever the other evidence etc etc I am rather troubled by the narrative that a conduct and ethics committee hearing be considered a normal action because on a single hand an individual found an unusual (and presumably successful) opening lead, purely on the grounds that with the state of the match being what it is, an unusual lead would be, er, unusual. Couldn't find chapter 2, and chapter 1 was written in 2008. Either something odd with my browser or it dried up or the web site design could do with improvement.

[nige1]

1eyedjack, on 2011-February-07, 13:39, said:

I gotta say, that whatever the other evidence etc etc I am rather troubled by the narrative that a conduct and ethics committee hearing be considered a normal action because on a single hand an individual found an unusual (and presumably successful) opening lead, purely on the grounds that with the state of the match being what it is, an unusual lead would be, er, unusual. Couldn't find chapter 2, and chapter 1 was written in 2008. Either something odd with my browser or it dried up or the web site design could do with improvement.

Chapter One

Chapter Two

Chapter Three

[bill1157]

nige1, on 2011-February-07, 19:03, said:

Chapter One

Chapter Two

Chapter Three

It looks like Sonntag is being accused of involvement in cheating here.

[hrothgar]

bill1157, on 2011-February-09, 14:03, said:

It looks like Sonntag is being accused of involvement in cheating here.

Depends on what you mean by "involvement".

As far as I know, Sontag has never been accused of cheating in any way, shape, or form.

The web pages in question argue that

1. Sontag benefited because his team mates cheated
2. Sontag (and others on his team) have an ethical obligation to vacate this championship

Personally, I couldn't care less about the whole brou-ha-ha.

I do think that it is completely inappropriate to state that Sontag is "involved in cheating here".
Cheating accusations are very serious stuff. A reader could easily leave with the wrong impression.

This is one example where we should all strive for precision in our postings...

[nige1]

hrothgar, on 2011-February-09, 14:29, said:

Depends on what you mean by "involvement".
As far as I know, Sontag has never been accused of cheating in any way, shape, or form. The web pages in question argue that
1. Sontag benefited because his team mates cheated
2. Sontag (and others on his team) have an ethical obligation to vacate this championship
Personally, I couldn't care less about the whole brou-ha-ha. I do think that it is completely inappropriate to state that Sontag is "involved in cheating here". Cheating accusations are very serious stuff. A reader could easily leave with the wrong impression. This is one example where we should all strive for precision in our postings...

We should all care about cheating allegations. They are bad for the game and terrible for the accused. The WBF and local legislatures should train special staff and specify objective investigation protocols. Players deserve prompt and efficient investigation of accusations. The rules (laws + regulations) should be drastically simplified, so that

• Players can comply with the rules. (It is easy to rationalise the breaking of rules that are hard to understand).
• Directors can consistently apply and enforce the rules. (Inconsistent rulings give the impression of unfairness).
• There are deterrent penalties for infractions that are hard to detect and infrequently reported. (Current so-called "Equity" principles guarantee long-term profits to players who break such rules).
• Victims of infractions receive adequate redress. (Currently, there is little incentive to report some infractions).

[pirate22]

Unfortuneatley CHEATING is now rampant on BBO-that is why i never
play money bridge on BBO--- E-bridge hd the same problem,
some years ago before they sold out.Cheaters crippled the site.
report to abuse is a somewhat lost cause---
there is no League table published-example no names ,
but we have caught 3 last week and banned them.
Suggestion.Hows about all participents,putting up a Bond
say 100 Dollars USA.refundable on terminating playing the
site-------- and non refundable if banned for whatever.
swearing-abusing partner-and abusing TD'S-and abusing opponents.

that would make a marked improvement.

I am also surprised this topic raised has not been adressed by FG
hows about it Fred any input

[matmat]

I think that BBO's punishment of cheaters is not public enough.

I think it would serve a good purpose to see Fred and his deputies, when they track down a suspected cheater, bring them back to Vegas.
They should interrogate the suspect using polygraphs, sodium pentotal, and the floating test. Anyone found guilty of cheating should be disposed of in one of the following ways, depending on the severity of the infraction:

1} breaking of kneecaps
2} cutting fingers off
3} lynching
4} drawing and quartering
5} disemboweling
6} decapitation with a dirty butter knife

I think that these events should be streamed through BBO and all other memebers should be forced to watch them under threat of lesser punishment (perhaps stabbing in the eye with a fork) as a deterrent.

[babalu1997]

matmat, on 2011-February-15, 12:28, said:

I think that BBO's punishment of cheaters is not public enough.

4} drawing and quartering

I think that these events should be streamed through BBO and all other memebers should be forced to watch them under threat of lesser punishment (perhaps stabbing in the eye with a fork) as a deterrent.

Ok then send the body parts for display in the abuser's bridge federation headquarters

[1eyedjack]

pirate22, on 2011-February-15, 10:14, said:

Unfortuneatley CHEATING is now rampant on BBO-that is why i never
play money bridge on BBO---

I think that the above comment betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of how the money bridge games work on BBO. Perhaps pirate22 would like to be specific with a single example of how a cheater might profit in a money bridge game?

pirate22, on 2011-February-15, 10:14, said:

E-bridge hd the same problem,
some years ago before they sold out.Cheaters crippled the site.

and yet BBO does not appear to be crippled, but if anything goes from strength to strength, including its money bridge games, perhaps giving the lie to the premise.

[G_R__E_G]

matmat, on 2011-February-15, 12:28, said:

I think that BBO's punishment of cheaters is not public enough.

I think it would serve a good purpose to see Fred and his deputies, when they track down a suspected cheater, bring them back to Vegas.
They should interrogate the suspect using polygraphs, sodium pentotal, and the floating test. Anyone found guilty of cheating should be disposed of in one of the following ways, depending on the severity of the infraction:

1} breaking of kneecaps
2} cutting fingers off
3} lynching
4} drawing and quartering
5} disemboweling
6} decapitation with a dirty butter knife

I think that these events should be streamed through BBO and all other memebers should be forced to watch them under threat of lesser punishment (perhaps stabbing in the eye with a fork) as a deterrent.

Or better yet, force them to read the entire global warming thread in the Watercooler.

[babalu1997]

pirate is cheating

he is cheating me of the opportunity to enjoy the bbo forum

take a vacation pirate.

[ggwhiz]

G_R__E_G, on 2011-February-15, 13:07, said:

Or better yet, force them to read the entire global warming thread in the Watercooler.

....and be required to submit a synopsis.

All good punsishement suggestions that should be shuffled and the offender has to draw theirs live on Vugraph.

[fred]

pirate22, on 2011-February-15, 10:14, said:

I am also surprised this topic raised has not been adressed by FG
hows about it Fred any input

Actually I believe I have addressed this topic several times in the past, but since it (unfortunately) seems to have become a hot topic again, I will do so again now.

The first thing you should understand is that there are several areas of BBO. The various properties of these areas determine our policies with respect to cheating in these areas:

1) Areas in which it is impossible to cheat. These include Money Bridge and non-duplicate robot tournaments (like Robot Reward).

Your statement:

Quote

Unfortuneatley CHEATING is now rampant on BBO-that is why i never play money bridge on BBO

doesn't really make any sense because the only areas in which there is guaranteed to be no cheating are those areas in which there are real $ prizes (Money Bridge) and those where there are substantial BB$ prizes (Robot Reward tournaments).

Anyway, obviously BBO does not have to have any cheating-related policies in these areas other than to make sure that it remains impossible to cheat.

2) Free tournaments and team matches

As I am typing this there are over 4000 people playing in free tournaments and over 600 people playing in team matches. Even if we wanted to, we do not have anywhere close to the resources to properly monitor even a small fraction of these people for possible cheating.

Please note that "proper monitoring" of even one person is a lot more complicated and time-consuming than you probably realize. I will spare you the details.

Not that this is even relevant, because we do not consider these events to be our responsibility. From BBO's point of view these are not *our* events - they are owned by the people who run them. Our responsibility is to provide the software platform. We give these people (TDs and team match hosts) the ability to decide who is allowed to play in the events that they run. And we give our players the ability to choose which free tournaments and team games they want to play in (or to form their own tournaments and team games if they are so inclined).

3) Public clubs (including the Main and Relaxed Bridge Clubs)

The numbers are even worse here - there are well over 5000 people playing in various public clubs at this particular moment in time. As with 2) above (free tournaments and team matches), we know that we can't even attempt to scratch the surface when it comes to policing the public clubs for possible cheats.

This category is different from 2), however, because nobody else is responsible for who can play in our public clubs - by their very nature they are open to the general public. But unfortunately even if the numbers were anywhere close to managable, it is not like we can really control who can play in public clubs. That is because it is very hard for us to get rid of those who are caught cheating if such people are determined to come back with a new ID and continue to play in public areas of our site.

So the bottom line is that there is not much point in BBO putting any real effort into keeping these areas clean - instead we expend our resources to fight battles that we think we have a chance of winning. If it is perception of cheating in public clubs that is bothering you, all I can really suggest is that you either try not to let such things ruin your day, that you play with and against people you know, that you play against rented robots, or that you play in other areas of our site.

4) Private clubs, tournaments hosted by private clubs, and BBO masterpoint tournaments run by groups like SKYCLUB, BBOLAND, etc.

We leave it up to those who run such clubs and tournaments to deal with those who might be cheating in them. If/when they ask us for help we give it to them. If/when they do not do an effective job in this area we expect that the market will decide their fate. If/when we learn that such people are complicit in cheating, we take action against them.

5) ACBL masterpoint tournaments

BBO itself has a responsibility to ACBL to deal with cheating in events in which ACBL masterpoints are offered. We take this responsibility very seriously. That involves significant expense, it is time-consuming, and it is not exactly my idea of fun.

I am not going to go into any real detail about our ACBL-related anti-cheating methods, but I have reason to believe we are doing a good job in this area. If you want to learn more, I wrote a lengthy article about this subject that appeared in the ACBL Bulletin late last year (in the October issue I think).

I hope the above helps to clarify BBO's position on such matters and that it will make it easier for you to enjoy the time you spend playing on our site.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Fluffy]

Hey Fred, just one topic not entered on your description, can you monitor star players in main club and team matches?, star players are the only ones that can't afford to create new ids for free, so the only comunity worth having a watch.

[Fluffy]

double post

[ggwhiz]

I just finished reporting a hand where I ....[SNIP -ediit by inquiry --]

OK. Maybe the self styled expert is just nuts

[SNIP - edit by inquiry ]


I am one who plays often with my spouse out of the same address and consider it a priviledge. Nothing drives me nuts more than a threat to said priviledge.

Could BBO register us as same location partnerships?

Monitor our actions and results with the occasional poison pill hand? Just monitoring us with a select sample of hands might catch a high % of bad actors without the high volume and time consuming traffic to abuse@bridgebase.com.

(( Editorial by Inquiry -- to follow ))

This post has been edited by inquiry: 2011-February-19, 17:00
Reason for edit: hide details of hand report by ggwhiz

[inquiry]

GGwhiz posted above a lot of info I had to edit. There is llittle doubt the part removed was an accusation of cheating, and based upon the hand, the accusation had provide strong support for such an accusation. I suspect the vast majority of BBO'ers who looked at that hand would suspect ggwhiz was cheated, but one hand never proves anythings (cheating, or even not cheating).

Ggwhiz should have reported this hand through the proper channel (perhaps he did). Second, this hand was played in one of the events were BBO does monitor for potential cheating. I will make sure the par who bid this hand against ggwhiz gets investigated, and if cheating was occuring, approriate steps will be taken.

As far as a list of people playing from same IP Address, there are many, many people who do this. It is not a problem, and there is little advantage to cheaters being at the same IP address or being half the world appart, so don't worry about where you play from ggwhiz.

[ggwhiz]

My apologies, not realizing my post would lead directly to the occurrence.

The attempt is to do whatever makes it easier and less time consuming for BBO staff to monitor but it seems to be in very good hands. Whatever the methods are and that they are not made public knowledge is probably a good thing.

[hotShot]

ggwhiz, on 2011-February-19, 16:22, said:

deleted

[Maark]

i wonder if hosts realize that i AVOID ALL TABLES WITH KIBITZERS WHO CAN CHAT because i have seen too much cheating and am unwilling to sit at their table. i don't think kibitzers should be able to CHAT AT ALL!! in the real bridge world, they cannot. anyway, my point is i won't sit at your table if you have a kibitzer who can chat.