[Winstonm]

Scoring: MP

At our table:

N E S W
1♦ 2♥ 2♠ P
3♠ P 4♦ P
4♥ P 4♠ p
5♣ P 5♥ P
5♠ P 6♠ P
P P

Would you and should you reach 7 spades/NT at MP's? If so, how would your bidding go?

---

4D is first or second round control but cannot be a void or singleton in partner's opened suit.

4H is first or second round control.

5 level cue bids are first round controls unless partner is known to hold the Ace in that suit.

Was anyone at fault in our auction? If so, who?

[EricK]

7♠ looks like a nice contract but I wouldn't be too upset if I missed it with a regular partner. I wouldn't be at all upset if a missed it with a pick-up partner or in a new partnership.

I think North is a little strong for 3♠ (assuming it is NF). After the 4♦ cuebid (which would confirm the K rather than shortage in my methods) North can bid RKCB and confirm all key cards present. Then he knows that the grand should make if ♦ break or if South has any extra (eg ♦J, extra trump, ♣K).

Eric

[inquiry]

Winstonm, on Aug 14 2005, 11:07 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

At our table:

N E S W
1♦ 2♥ 2♠ P
3♠ P 4♦ P
4♥ P 4♠ p
5♣ P 5♥ P
5♠ P 6♠ P
P P

Would you and should you reach 7 spades/NT at MP's? If so, how would your bidding go?

---

4D is first or second round control but cannot be a void or singleton in partner's opened suit.

4H is first or second round control.

5 level cue bids are first round controls unless partner is known to hold the Ace in that suit.

Was anyone at fault in our auction? If so, who?

1D - (2H) - 2S - (P)
3S - (P)  - 3N - (P)
4C - (P)  - 4D - (P)
4N - (P)  - 5S - (P)
7S

Where,
3NT = serious 3NT
4C = cue-bid (Ace, king, singleton, or void)
4D = cue bid (Ace, King or queen - don't cue-bid short in partners suit)
4N = RKCB
5S = two keycards plus spade Qeen
7S = 1H, 5S, 4D, 1C, 1H ruff plus whatever partner has that makes him have slam ambition with serious 3NT. Wiht KQxxx Axx Kxx xx or like (12 points), he would just cue-bid 4D rather than bid serious 3NT.

[luke warm]

my bidding:

1d (2h) x* (p)
2nt** (p) 3s*** (p)
4s (p) 4nt (p)
5d (p) 7s

*=normal neg x OR game force
**=diamonds and clubs, longer diamonds
***=game force

the 4s bid showed 3154, so responder knows about the stiff heart... from my view the grand depends on the location of the ♦Q...

[Free]

Mine starts similar to Ben's:

1♣* - 2♥ - 2♠* - pass
3♠ - pass - 3NT* - pass
4NT - pass - 5♠ - pass
5NT - pass - 6♦* - pass
7♠

1♣ = 15+ any
2♠ = 5+♠, GF
3NT = serious 3NT, showing slam interest
5♠ = 2 keycards in ♠ with the ♠Q
6♦ = ♦K

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

just one comment.

3S by North is a slight underbid, it
could be passed, unless 2S is already
GF, but for most of the players; who
play 2S AS forcing, 3S would just
be a one round force.

1D - (2H) - 2S - (Pass)
4H - (Pass) - ...

Probbaly 4NT, and shoot 6S, but this is far
from certain, you may be missing AK in clubs.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[coyot]

Marlowe, the very definition of "Serious 3NT" is FORCING :-)

It deprives the partnership of playing 3NT with major fit for the price of showing slam interest cheaply...

[P_Marlowe]

coyot, on Aug 15 2005, 05:25 AM, said:

Marlowe, the very definition of "Serious 3NT" is FORCING :-)

It deprives the partnership of playing 3NT with major fit for the price of showing slam interest cheaply...

Hi,

what's your point?

My claim was, that 3S can be passed and I doubt
that opener really wants to only play 3S, after he heard
a forcing 2S bid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[coyot]

P_Marlowe, on Aug 15 2005, 05:31 AM, said:

coyot, on Aug 15 2005, 05:25 AM, said:

Marlowe, the very definition of "Serious 3NT" is FORCING :-)

It deprives the partnership of playing 3NT with major fit for the price of showing slam interest cheaply...

Hi,

what's your point?

My claim was, that 3S can be passed and I doubt
that opener really wants to only play 3S, after he heard
a forcing 2S bid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Oh, sorry, I misread your post... and I thought you were responding to the latest before it... never mind...

[Fluffy]

After 4♦ it seems pretty easy to count 13 tricks in ♠, finding 7NT would be impossible to me, since althou I can try to ask about a 6th ♠ (and pray for partner to consider it extra lenght) I cannot ask for a third ♦, so 7♠ would be the contract I would reach.

I think the 5♣ bid at your table was poor, 4NT seemed in order to blast 7♠. This is unless 4♦ could be singleton.

[Rebound]

It was my understanding that, when using the serious 3NT structure, there should be no cuebids at the 5-level since its purpose is to prepare for RKB.

Of course, you're entitled to do anything you like. I am just going by Fred's description of it. Opinions?

[Walddk]

I would like to know how 3♠ by North can be right when it's non-forcing. 2♠ didn't promise more than 10+, did it? There was an overcall, so even if you play 2/1, a 2-over-1 response is no longer game forcing

Roland

[mikeh]

Whether 3♠ is forcing is a matter for agreement. For me it is, even in the partnership in which I play that 2♠ is not gf. Yes, we may sometimes over-reach, but the gain in being able to set trump relatively economically outweighs the occasional overbid.

However, saying that 3♠ is forcing for me is not the same thing as agreeing that it is the correct bid.

North has, in context, a great hand, containing a lot of features likely to be of interest to partner. His possession of both minor Aces and the ♠AJ make it probable that South will be reluctant to take charge on hands on which small slam is eminently playable: on this hand, several routes lead to slam even over a conservative bid by North but only because South has extras himself. North cannot assume that happy state of affairs, so should do his best to let partner in on the secret.

3♥ is one way, but is too flawed for me. Partner cannot know that 3♥ was in support of ♠, so may well make a rebid that eliminates any sensible auction.

4♥ is my choice: a splinter, showing good trump, a stiff ♥ and significant extra values.

Once again, agreements are useful. Thus, for me, a splinter in the suit just below our trump suit is a rare bid: I like to have an intervening step available as Last Train.

Also, some people use splinters in this type of sequence without much extra: I don't like that approach.

I would, admittedly, prefer to have an extra trump (I'd also like to have more hair on my head), but AJx is okay given that partner rates to have 5 good or 6 decent. Besides, my minor suit controls are such that partner will not go nuts on me without decent trump.


The splinter will get South very interested. It is so unlikely that NS are off 2 quick ♣ tricks that I would make an exception to an almost rigid rule: I would keycard despite having xx in an unbid side suit. I can do this because 4♥ promises extras, and slam interest, and my ♠/♦ holdings are so good that partner has to have some ♣ control: if it is the King, the odds are high that the Ace is onside after the weak jump overcall.

After 4N, we get a 5♦ response (1430) and we can bid 6♦ as a grand slam try.

Partner will bid 7 on the basis of the ♦Q.

Now, I admit that South will have invited the grand without being certain of 13 tricks: opener could be 4=1=4=4.

If so, then opener could have the ♦J, or the J could be doubleton, or he may have the ♣K, or there may be a squeeze, and so on: imagine North with AQxx AJxx in the minors and west with J9xx and KQxx... surely possible after a weak jump overcall.

So 13 tricks may be laydown, and if not, there will likely be a play.

[pclayton]

I can't believe anyone would really play 3♠ as forcing. I kind of like a 4♥ splinter myself (outre, I know with only 3 trump).

South is off to the races.

But it seems you and your pard were on the same wavelength with 3♠.

I guess I comprehend all bids up to 5♣. But why 5♣? Whats wrong with 4N? Then:

... ...
4N 5♠
5N 6♦
6♥

6♥ is Last Train, saying...we hold all the relevant Aces and Kings. But I need a skosh extra for 7. With the 6th spade, South can bid it comfortably.

[whereagles]

Hum.. question to Ben: are you playing 1♦-2♥-2♠ as game forcing? If not, I cannot make sense of your auction

Mine would be

1♦ (2♥) 2♠
3♣ 3♠
4♥ 4NT
5♣ 5NT
6♠ pass

3♣ = obviously gf. Idea is to follow up with 4♠ to bid out shape.
4♥ = 4♠ now could be on a small doubleton, so a little push is necessary.
4NT = the diamond king is a super-card on this bidding.
5NT = any extras for the bidding so far?
6♠ = not really.

No grand for me. In fact, I'd be happy if I could reach slam at all

[Winstonm]

Walddk, on Aug 23 2005, 04:38 PM, said:

I would like to know how 3♠ by North can be right when it's non-forcing. 2♠ didn't promise more than 10+, did it? There was an overcall, so even if you play 2/1, a 2-over-1 response is no longer game forcing

Roland

This is certainly a valid point so let me explain. Partner insists that this raise be forcing as his view is that with a found fit, a free bid, and sound openers that game should be bid. I've caused him to change many of his methods and ideas so now and again I give in and let him have his way on some auctions.

In hands such as this it is a boon to save the room and to the 4H bidders I simply point out that if the hand would have been AJx, xx, AQxxx, Axx the same tricks are almost as likely.

As for me, I finally convinced him after the tournament in which we bid this hand that neither of us play as well as we did 20 years ago so if were to conitinue to compete with the big boys we had to outbid them - I think this grand is eminently biddable and appreciate everyone's input.

I think our auction should have been:

1D-2H-2S-P
3S*-P-4D**-P * Forcing by agreement. **Honor card(s) in diamonds
4H*-p-4S-P *First or second round control
5C*-P-5H*-P *Guranteed first round controls
6D*-P-*7S *Grand slam invite. Acceptance with extra length.

Winston

[Walddk]

Winstonm, on Aug 24 2005, 07:40 AM, said:

This is certainly a valid point so let me explain. Partner insists that this raise be forcing as his view is that with a found fit, a free bid, and sound openers that game should be bid.

Fine with me. So you are in game with 12 opposite 10 (both could be balanced) as long as you have a 5-3 fit.

---

Well, if you insist on going down in 4♠ when the opponents can't make anything, I am not going to stop you. If vulnerable at MP you will probably even face the dreaded "Kiss of Death".

Roland

[Winstonm]

Walddk, on Aug 24 2005, 01:19 AM, said:

Winstonm, on Aug 24 2005, 07:40 AM, said:

This is certainly a valid point so let me explain.  Partner insists that this raise be forcing as his view is that with a found fit, a free bid, and sound openers that game should be bid.

Fine with me. So you are in game with 12 opposite 10 (both could be balanced) as long as you have a 5-3 fit.

---

Well, if you insist on going down in 4♠ when the opponents can't make anything, I am not going to stop you. If vulnerable at MP you will probably even face the dreaded "Kiss of Death".

Roland

I didn't say I liked it or even agreed with it - only that it's what partner insists we play. By the way, I held the South hand and I wasn't clear in this auction if partner considered 3S forcing or not during the hand but still thought my hand worth a slam try. It wasn't until after the session that we hammered out the agreement - after which I proceeded to get hammered for giving in so easily.

Winston

[FrancesHinden]

Winstonm, on Aug 14 2005, 10:07 AM, said:

Would you and should you reach 7 spades/NT at MP's? If so, how would your bidding go?

No, and I wouldn't want to.
At IMPS I would like to be in 7S. At no form of scoring do I ever want to be in 7NT.

In the vast majority of MP competitions I want to be in 6S. Bear in mind that
i) they have a 10-card heart fit and haven't made your auction very difficult
ii) you are only 27 HCP high. Most fields are only just capable of bidding game with 27 high.
iii) grand is by no means cold, though it's certainly with the theoretical odds ASSUMING EVERYONE ELSE BIDS A SMALL SLAM. Try it on a club lead: you need spades 2-2 or diamonds 3-2 (or possibly a minor suit squeeze).

My general rule at matchpoints is: don't bid a grand slam unless you can claim at trick one.