[jillybean]

---

[P_Marlowe]

#1 No, but it certainly is forcing, I think even 4H should be considered as forcing.
#2 I am not sure, what club positive means, if it is a real suit, it should be a 6 carder,
and you would be better served with 4C, setting trumps.
#3 7NT, whatever.

[jillybean]

#2 not entirely sure myself, not discussed. good club cards

[apollo1201]

Never seen before but I guess partner has a C suit and a good fit but no S/D control, and is highly encouraging. It should show a better fit than 4H that could be made on 3 small. So a 2452 hand maybe Qx (or xx) xxxx (or J 4th) Qx KQJxx. I added the some queens to make it look like a real positive hand but even that collection is not overly exciting, until we know partner s rebid…a 6th C should be welcome, but why partner does not splinter is a mystery and even with Qx xxx Qx KQJxxx, 4H should be enough to let partner keycard or else.

In all cases we seem to have at least 13 tricks so 7NT should be bid. With a strong desire to see the lead and dummy!

[pescetom]

I'm with P_Marlowe: it should be a six card suit with 2+ top honours to be allowed to preempt the strong hand like this. Carpe diem: 4♦ Kickback RKCB, aiming for one of the two grands.

[awm]

I've seen auctions like this before. Partner has a hand too good for 4♥, but doesn't want to bid keycard. It's not clear what else he can bid with such a hand -- say he has for example:

♠Qxx
♥JTx
♦Qx
♣KQJxx

A new suit or 4♣ is a misdescription, 4♥ or 3NT is an underbid, you could blast a slam but it seems just barely possible you are off two aces.

With the given opener hand I'd just blast 7NT.

[pescetom]

awm, on 2026-May-16, 11:28, said:

I've seen auctions like this before. Partner has a hand too good for 4♥, but doesn't want to bid keycard. It's not clear what else he can bid with such a hand -- say he has for example:

♠Qxx
♥JTx
♦Qx
♣KQJxx

A new suit or 4♣ is a misdescription, 4♥ or 3NT is an underbid, you could blast a slam but it seems just barely possible you are off two aces.

I would be tempted to strangle partner who preempted me in a minor with this balanced hand.
But it's clear that there are significant differences in national style here.
We would have bid something like:
2♣ - 2♦ (at least a K)
2♥ (♥ or bal) - 2♠ (obliged)
2NT (24-25) - 4♣ (Aces?*)
4♦ (0/4) - 7NT
P

* an extremely rare example of Gerber being useful

[P_Marlowe]

I dont understand, why 4H instead of 5H is an underbid, even the lack of being able to keycard
is not a justification to bid 5H: facing a 2C opener, we made a pos. response with 3C and showed a fit.
Do we really expect, that opener will pass 4H?
If responder cannot keycard, great, the stronger hand should ask for keycards anyway.

[Cyberyeti]

We have an absolutely clear cut agreement that 2♣-positive is F4N unless a suit is known open, this is useful here. 4♥ is forcing over 3♥.

TBH 5♥ would be something like - xxxx - KQJxxxxxx where there is no sensible way of investigating.

[pescetom]

P_Marlowe, on 2026-May-16, 12:55, said:

I dont understand, why 4H instead of 5H is an underbid, even the lack of being able to keycard
is not a justification to bid 5H: facing a 2C opener, we made a pos. response with 3C and showed a fit.
Do we really expect, that opener will pass 4H?
If responder cannot keycard, great, the stronger hand should ask for keycards anyway.

I suspect one of the underlying problems is the bizarre agreement (maybe part of Standard American?) that Opener balanced with a 5cM will bid the major rather than some level of 2NT.
Otherwise I am flummoxed why Responder is messing around this way.

[bluenikki]

pescetom, on 2026-May-16, 13:06, said:

Otherwise I am flummoxed why Responder is messing around this way.

I was the partner. The reason I bid that way was to avoid having to take control with a balanced hand. As you did.

[Zelandakh]

bluenikki, on 2026-May-16, 13:31, said:

I was the partner. The reason I bid that way was to avoid having to take control with a balanced hand. As you did.

This is the full hand. The question is why someone who wanted "to avoid having to take control" is starting with 3♣ here...

[bluenikki]

Zelandakh, on 2026-May-16, 14:56, said:

This is the full hand. The question is why someone who wanted "to avoid having to take control" is starting with 3♣ here...

Why would anyone call 3♣ taking control? It's _showing_ the main feature of the hand.

[pescetom]

bluenikki, on 2026-May-16, 13:31, said:

I was the partner. The reason I bid that way was to avoid having to take control with a balanced hand. As you did.

I think it is normal that Responder should take control (with a balanced hand or not) after Opener promises and precisely limits (to within 1 HCP) a balanced hand.

What is not normal in my book is that he throws his own balanced hand in the wheel of strong Opener for no apparent reason.
But it's all a convention and I understand that NA style and regulations follow a different drum.

[jillybean]

Cyberyeti, on 2026-May-16, 13:06, said:

4♥ is forcing over 3♥.

I'm not sure what I would have done over 4♥, I have never had agreements at this level.

[jillybean]

Cyberyeti, on 2026-May-16, 13:06, said:

We have an absolutely clear cut agreement that 2♣-positive is F4N unless a suit is known open, this is useful here. 4♥ is forcing over 3♥.

TBH 5♥ would be something like - xxxx - KQJxxxxxx where there is no sensible way of investigating.

So someone has bypassed a cue and returned to the trump suit, nt?

[apollo1201]

 Zelandakh, on 2026-May-16, 14:56, said:

This is the full hand. The question is why someone who wanted "to avoid having to take control" is starting with 3♣ here...

At least almost all of us got the hand right!

[Cyberyeti]

jillybean, on 2026-May-16, 19:50, said:

So someone has bypassed a cue and returned to the trump suit, nt?

Trump suit ? how do you bid a hand with 5-6 or similar in the minors with no hearts ? 3♥ hasn't set a trump suit