[doobygilis]

After 25 years of playing online at various platforms, I played my first live Bridge in a seasonal tournament yesterday at the St. Paul Bridge Center.

I'm depressed. Here's what happened.

The computer platform does a lot of work that I never had to include in my processing--The cards are all lined up nicely and easy to read; I have an immediate display of who bid what, of the number of tricks currently made in an easy to see number. Before yesterday I didn't know that the dealer opened the bidding.

I suddenly had to add mental tasks to perform. Here I was, excited because I was going to play my first live hand, at last, and I'm burning a little extra energy with excitement.

I couldn't keep track of things and the added weight was too much. I couldn't keep track of the cards, was doing minimal card reading, and as declarer collapsed at one point.

By Board 12 I was tired and wanted to go home. By Board 18 I was completely frazzled.

At one point, halfway through a board, I asked what the trump suit was. How humiliating. Worse, I WAS DECLARER!

I figure I need to find a foursome and play at least a few dozen or maybe even a few hundred hands with real cards hitting the table, so that I can exercise doing the things I won't have a computer to do for me when I'm playing live hands.

[HardVector]

What you are describing is exactly the same kind of mental laziness that teachers were claiming would happen when students were allowed to use calculators to help them with their math problems.

40 years later, I now go to a store and find that the employee taking my payment can't calculate the change they should return to me without their calculator telling them what it is.

Crutches are useful, but shouldn't be a permanent requirement. When you need a crutch all the time, you are definitially disabled.

I'm not trying to be insulting with this, I'm just saying that doing all the little things you were describing is a part the game. It is those things that add to the depth if the game and make it interesting, not an annoying, unnecessary complexity. This is why we celebrate the people who can play this game at the highest levels, is because they can process all this information efficiently and well.

The way to improve in this area, is to exercise your muscles, and put down the crutch. You don't have to do it all the time, when you get tired, grab the crutch and continue on.

[paulg]

I think a lot of people expressed similar feelings when they went back to face-to-face bridge after Covid. Some had completely forgotten how to operate BridgeMates too.

It gets easier as you play more.

[doobygilis]

HardVector, on 2025-October-26, 14:55, said:

What you are describing is exactly the same kind of mental laziness that teachers were claiming would happen when students were allowed to use calculators to help them with their math problems.

40 years later, I now go to a store and find that the employee taking my payment can't calculate the change they should return to me without their calculator telling them what it is.

Crutches are useful, but shouldn't be a permanent requirement. When you need a crutch all the time, you are definitially disabled.

I'm not trying to be insulting with this, I'm just saying that doing all the little things you were describing is a part the game. It is those things that add to the depth if the game and make it interesting, not an annoying, unnecessary complexity. This is why we celebrate the people who can play this game at the highest levels, is because they can process all this information efficiently and well.

The way to improve in this area, is to exercise your muscles, and put down the crutch. You don't have to do it all the time, when you get tired, grab the crutch and continue on.

Not insulting at all.

I knew from changing platforms over 20 years ago that I would have some issues working with a new (live) interface. Also, I'll be 69 in December, I've put some miles on my noggin from various ill-advised activities, and to the extent that matters, my mind isn't as nimble as it was when I was 50.

There's some ego involved here too. I'm a much better player than showed up yesterday. Now, do I really care to take the steps to prove it, or just be happy enjoying playing Bridge a few hours online daily?

Anyway, thanks for the feedback.

[doobygilis]

paulg, on 2025-October-26, 15:07, said:

I think a lot of people expressed similar feelings when they went back to face-to-face bridge after Covid. Some had completely forgotten how to operate BridgeMates too.

It gets easier as you play more.

It wore me out. I play a bit of footy a couple times a week, wear myself out chasing the ball, but 12 hands into the tournament yesterday and I was knackered.

I figured, Bridge, I know how to do it. Do daily. Brought along a bagel and a discount diet coke for the day's nutrition. That will be addressed too. Not quite like sitting at home with the fridge behind me.

Thanks.

[pescetom]

The important thing is that you still see this as an attractive challenge. The issues you mention will quite quickly drop into place, except for the increased difficulty of remembering the auction and visualizing the split of cards around the table.

What disconcerted me most on return to F2F after Covid was not any inherent difficulty in the different means of play, but my unease about the grubby (in those days unthinkable) pieces of paper and the huge amount of UI flying around the table. But most people seem convinced they need the eggs, for one reason or another. I can live with any mix but I don't take seriously bridge F2F without screens.

[jillybean]

Yeah, playing in a sectional would take an inordinate effort after 25 years lounging on your couch with a computer on your lap
There's all the noise, distractions, odours, TD calls, bathroom breaks, you can't take your PC and balance it somewhere.

But did you otherwise enjoy it?

[HardVector]

doobygilis, on 2025-October-26, 15:31, said:

Not insulting at all.

I knew from changing platforms over 20 years ago that I would have some issues working with a new (live) interface. Also, I'll be 69 in December, I've put some miles on my noggin from various ill-advised activities, and to the extent that matters, my mind isn't as nimble as it was when I was 50.

There's some ego involved here too. I'm a much better player than showed up yesterday. Now, do I really care to take the steps to prove it, or just be happy enjoying playing Bridge a few hours online daily?

Anyway, thanks for the feedback.

I'm actually not advocating going completely "naked" on the assists. After reflecting on what I said, I realized that utilizing an assist allows you to increase the complexity of your thinking by dispensing with some of the routine activities. For instance, when I started, there were no bidding boxes, all your bids were verbal. This required you to remember everyone's actions during an auction. Needless to say, trying to scientifically explore a nuanced deal in the bidding was not a thing you did when you weren't sure of just how the bidding even started. Having the bids laid on the table is a VERY useful crutch.

[doobygilis]

jillybean, on 2025-October-26, 16:22, said:

Yeah, playing in a sectional would take an inordinate effort after 25 years lounging on your couch with a computer on your lap
There's all the noise, distractions, odours, TD calls, bathroom breaks, you can't take your PC and balance it somewhere.

But did you otherwise enjoy it?

It was brutal, and I had to pay $6 for it. I'm a cheapskate. By far the best $6 I've ever spent.

[doobygilis]

HardVector, on 2025-October-26, 16:39, said:

I'm actually not advocating going completely "naked" on the assists. After reflecting on what I said, I realized that utilizing an assist allows you to increase the complexity of your thinking by dispensing with some of the routine activities. For instance, when I started, there were no bidding boxes, all your bids were verbal. This required you to remember everyone's actions during an auction. Needless to say, trying to scientifically explore a nuanced deal in the bidding was not a thing you did when you weren't sure of just how the bidding even started. Having the bids laid on the table is a VERY useful crutch.

It requires different mental muscles, as you mentioned, with all that implies.

[mikeh]

I have a good friend who is trying very hard to learn bridge. Her husband, my regular partner, is an extremely good player but suffers from the same issues i do as a teacher (tho he is infinitely more patient than i am): its very difficult to understand how complex the game is to a newbie. You’re no newbie at bridge but youre wrestling with similar cognitive demands.

My friend used to get exhausted after a dozen hands but is slowly improving. She played a 26 board sectional for new players and survived.

You’ll almost certainly adjust faster than you expect. You’re ahead of most newbies in that your problems are about the environment rather than the game itself. Plug away…it will get easier faster….anyway, that's my prediction.

And, imo, it’s worth the effort. Face to face bridge is far more enjoyable than online.

[jillybean]

doobygilis, on 2025-October-26, 17:09, said:

It was brutal, and I had to pay $6 for it. I'm a cheapskate. By far the best $6 I've ever spent.

$6 !! where are you located?

I pay CAD$12 for a club game

[doobygilis]

They Called Me Stan

Saturday, after 25 years of playing Bridge online, I played my first live hand ever, in a local tournament. If you don't play Bridge, I'd have trouble explaining just how badly it went.

I'm still processing things, and I'm still working on the first draft of the experience, though I already have the title, which was one of many unintended gifts that I received.

When I signed up for the tournament, I put my name on a sheet of paper, and then at some point someone crossed out "Steve" and wrote "Stan", and 'Stan' got entered into these little electronic devices that give your name and the table you're supposed to play the next hand at.

At every table it was "Hello Carol Ann, and Stan" and then my saying "My name is Steve. I don't know where 'Stan' came from, though I had a great uncle named Stan."
At subsequent tables, my great uncle Stan Bartosavich, whom I really didn't know, was brought up in the conversation about how my name got mistaken.

(posted on Facebook for my nonBridge playing friends)

[pescetom]

doobygilis, on 2025-October-26, 14:04, said:

The computer platform does a lot of work that I never had to include in my processing--The cards are all lined up nicely and easy to read; I have an immediate display of who bid what, of the number of tricks currently made in an easy to see number. Before yesterday I didn't know that the dealer opened the bidding.

As a side note, while I fully agree about the advantage of being able to peek at the auction and to play in hand diagram mode, I'm a bit puzzled that you find the number of tricks currently made easy to see on BBO. As Declarer I find the lack of a way to dismiss the trick just played disconcerting and can never figure out if it has already been counted to the total or not. Probably I missed something, or maybe one just has to learn that it *has* already been counted (or vice versa). No such issue F2F (nor on other platforms, for that matter).

[pilowsky]

pescetom, on 2025-October-27, 16:08, said:

As Declarer I find the lack of a way to dismiss the trick just played disconcerting and can never figure out if it has already been counted to the total or not.

Just click anywhere on the table and it will drop like the falling rain.

[doobygilis]

jillybean, on 2025-October-26, 21:34, said:

$6 !! where are you located?

I pay CAD$12 for a club game

Minneapolis. I have zero masterpoints, never even played in a tourney with them available before. So as a newcomer with zero master points I got an 18 board session for $6.

I'm a frugal person and the idea of paying $6 to play a game that I can log onto BBO and play for free--that's hard, even at a lower price.

[doobygilis]

pescetom, on 2025-October-27, 16:08, said:

As a side note, while I fully agree about the advantage of being able to peek at the auction and to play in hand diagram mode, I'm a bit puzzled that you find the number of tricks currently made easy to see on BBO. As Declarer I find the lack of a way to dismiss the trick just played disconcerting and can never figure out if it has already been counted to the total or not. Probably I missed something, or maybe one just has to learn that it *has* already been counted (or vice versa). No such issue F2F (nor on other platforms, for that matter).

The current score shows up on the left side of my screen, halfway down. I have a number and suit showing the bid, and just below it is the current trick count.

One of the ironies, maybe, is that when I play online, I not only refer to the BBO Double Dummy tool on almost every hand to see whether better lines of play exist. ALSO, I have the BBO Helper App that, after the hand, gives me par score, par bid, and a full grid showing the maximium makeable bid for each of the possible bids (1C-7NT(.

So while I'm bidding and playing, I'm also analyzing the past hand to see the possibilities. And despite that, when I was sitting at the live table I was a mess.

ALSO, also, playing live I realized I couldn't see my partner's cards after the hand, to see whether our bidding and play is working.

[mycroft]

But, almost everywhere, you have hand records, so you can (and should!) do that after the session. And, if you're stressed out by "I can revoke and make insufficient bids with cards I can mis-sort in my hands", delaying the extra energy use of analyzing the hands during play will help with that. Frankly (and despite what I do playing online, too - it's really seductive!) it's better if you wait until after there, too.

[pescetom]

 doobygilis, on 2025-October-28, 09:10, said:

One of the ironies, maybe, is that when I play online, I not only refer to the BBO Double Dummy tool on almost every hand to see whether better lines of play exist. ALSO, I have the BBO Helper App that, after the hand, gives me par score, par bid, and a full grid showing the maximium makeable bid for each of the possible bids (1C-7NT(.

So while I'm bidding and playing, I'm also analyzing the past hand to see the possibilities. And despite that, when I was sitting at the live table I was a mess.

ALSO, also, playing live I realized I couldn't see my partner's cards after the hand, to see whether our bidding and play is working.

Yeah, I have all that stuff too on BBO and do much the same.

But when playing F2F, here we *do* usually have the hand diagram and double dummy matrix available on our phone immediately after entering the score, together with the scores at other tables. As mycroft suggests, I try to avoid seeing it at least until the end of the round (when one of the three opponents is going to discuss it anyway, unless we are late). I don't think studying it is beneficial to the way we play the next board, which is all that counts right now. And many first sight impressions are wrong anyway.

Don't ask why I treat BBO diametrically opposite, it just seems a more gratifying (less boring) way to play BBO. If we continue to have the diagrams available F2F (I am contrary, but it's a losing battle) I may well give in and study each board immediately afterwards, like most other people seem to want to do. I'm still convinced it is not a great idea for the partnership and the final result though.

[pescetom]

 pilowsky, on 2025-October-27, 19:55, said:

Just click anywhere on the table and it will drop like the falling rain.

Thanks, will try it next time I play.