[jillybean]

1♠:2♣ (5 clubs+, 10+ points)
2♠: ?


What is the general consensus, playing standard does 2♣ promise a rebid if opener rebids her suit?
(this is why I don't play std)

[TMorris]

jillybean, on 2025-September-12, 13:57, said:

1♠:2♣ (5 clubs+, 10+ points)
2♠: ?


What is the general consensus, playing standard does 2♣ promise a rebid if opener rebids her suit?
(this is why I don't play std)

I play Acol and there 2 ♣ does not promise a rebid on this sequence. It sounds in this instance much the same as the system you describe. If 2 ♣ can be a 10 count why would it promise a rebid.

[jillybean]

TMorris, on 2025-September-12, 14:17, said:

I play Acol and there 2 ♣ does not promise a rebid on this sequence. It sounds in this instance much the same as the system you describe. If 2 ♣ can be a 10 count why would it promise a rebid.

Exactly as I expected. Opener must find another bid, sometimes a manufactured bid, if he needs to force.

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2025-September-12, 13:57, said:

1♠:2♣ (5 clubs+, 10+ points)
2♠: ?


What is the general consensus, playing standard does 2♣ promise a rebid if opener rebids her suit?
(this is why I don't play std)

I am mildly surprised that anyone is still interested in such archaeology
I don't have my books underhand, but seem to remember that later Goren promised a rebid.
Italian standard 4cM certainly did, unlike Acol.

[smerriman]

If you're playing SAYC, 2♠ is forcing, because it specifically says so.

If you're playing SA, I wouldn't assume so.

[jillybean]

pescetom, on 2025-September-12, 14:51, said:

I am mildly surprised that anyone is still interested in such archaeology
I don't have my books underhand, but seem to remember that later Goren promised a rebid.
Italian standard 4cM certainly did, unlike Acol.

In NA, Some move very slowly, perhaps backwards.
I'm now not sure if I should have even asked

[mycroft]

Back in the day, I was told that a 2/1 promised a rebid unless you bid game. There were arguments about whether 2NT was passable.

Acol aside (because I never have been able to understand how they can play with so few forcing calls. I know they *can*, I just don't know how) the big issue with non-2/1GF systems is trying to find a bid partner won't pass. I'd say "can't pass", but the issue is that even if they can't, they do anyway...Frankly it's a similar problem with the 2/1 Forcing to Q-Game people (can pass 4 of a minor if 3NT was investigated and denied), and even the "2/1 GF unless suit rebid" people.

I like unambiguous, and will pay off to the rare cases where "system got us too high partner"; they're much less feel-bad than "I was trying for slam, partner, could you not tell?" +170/+190/+230/+260.

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

most of the time it does not matter, most of the time the player making the 2/1 will try to
find a bid, 2NT comes to mind, the reason being, if you were strong enough to respond with
a 2/1 and can still respond on the 2 level, why pass.

But the answer is No, if you dont want to get passed out in 2S, find a different bid..

With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt

[awm]

This is one of the differences between Standard American and Acol. I think this is almost universally played as forcing in Standard American (it's definitely forcing in the more formally-defined SAYC since 2/1 responder promises a rebid unless opener's second call is at the game level). It's non-forcing in Acol.

There are other Standard American sequences that differ from SAYC (i.e. I think most play 1♠-2♣-2NT or 1♠-2♣-3♣ as non-forcing, even though both are forcing in SAYC for the same reason given above), but I don't think I've seen 1♠-2♣-2♠ passed in North America except by true beginners.

[bluenikki]

 jillybean, on 2025-September-12, 13:57, said:

1♠:2♣ (5 clubs+, 10+ points)
2♠: ?


What is the general consensus, playing standard does 2♣ promise a rebid if opener rebids her suit?
(this is why I don't play std)

Just because you _may_ bid 2♣ with 10 hcp and 5-card doesn't mean you must. If you don't have a reasonably comfortable rebid after every normal rebid by opener, then you must not.

For example, if you have 10 and a pretty good 6-card suit you can bid it. That's when you'd like not to be playing 2/1 FG. Your problem will come when you have an extra king.

[jillybean]

Ok so players are taught to bid 2x with 5+ cards and 10 points but perhaps not told to think what their rebid will be over a 2level rebid of partners suit, hence most pass 2x with a non fitting 10 count.

[WasWinM]

I was taught that a 2/1 sequence was forcing to 2nt.

[akwoo]

I played it as non-forcing in one partnership but definitely agree it's not standard in NA.

As Acol has demonstrated, it's definitely playable, particularly if it's played as the only non-forcing rebid below game. Having played it, I actually prefer it to the SAYC agreement (though not to 2/1 game forcing).

[awm]

It may also be worth mentioning that it's pretty normal to bid 2♣ on four cards with some distributions (i.e. 3334, 2344, 3244, 2434, 1444) and maybe possible to bid 2♣ even with three (3433). I don't think it's standard for it to show 5+ by any means.

[jillybean]

 awm, on 2025-September-13, 13:41, said:

It may also be worth mentioning that it's pretty normal to bid 2♣ on four cards with some distributions (i.e. 3334, 2344, 3244, 2434, 1444) and maybe possible to bid 2♣ even with three (3433). I don't think it's standard for it to show 5+ by any means.

I hear some players even bid a gf 2C with zero clubs.
For the purposes of this discussion, we are talking about club players who will have 5 cards for any 2/1 bid.

[smerriman]

 jillybean, on 2025-September-13, 14:10, said:

I hear some players even bid a gf 2C with zero clubs.
For the purposes of this discussion, we are talking about club players who will have 5 cards for any 2/1 bid.

But we're talking about SAYC / SA, not 2/1 GF. There you are taught that a 1nt response to 1M shows 6-9 points. So it is very common to bid 2m with a 4 card suit, as that is often the only option you have.

[bluenikki]

 smerriman, on 2025-September-13, 14:46, said:

But we're talking about SAYC / SA, not 2/1 GF. There you are taught that a 1nt response to 1M shows 6-9 points. So it is very common to bid 2m with a 4 card suit, as that is often the only option you have.

But that's just numerology. It is madness to refuse to devalue 10 hcp, even though it leads into disaster.

[smerriman]

 bluenikki, on 2025-September-13, 18:08, said:

But that's just numerology. It is madness to refuse to devalue 10 hcp, even though it leads into disaster.

Devaluing 10 HCP doesn't change the point at all; if you exclude some 10 HCP hands, exactly the same applies to the 11 HCP or stronger hands. If you're bidding 1NT on those due to not having a 5 card suit, you're not playing SA anymore..