[mike777]

For this thread, please assume you are playing garbage stayman for both an opening strong NT and overcalling with a strong NT.

1NT-2C
2D-2H
2S-2NT

compared to

1NT-2C
2D-2NT

What would be the distinction?

It seems in option one you have an interest or willingness to stop and play in a 4-3 heart fit, if none exists, in other words the strong NT hand has only 2H, you are willing to play in 2NT?
In option2, you don't.

Do you know or play this style?

[smerriman]

Do you mean crawling Stayman? In Garbage Stayman, you pass 2♦. If you play crawling Stayman, then the two auctions don't seem related; on the latter, you're inviting opener to 3NT, while on the former 2♥ shows a weak 3-suiter as it's NF, so 2NT can't exist.

Edit - sorry, I think I understand your question now.. you're suggesting there may be a hand which is willing to play in 2♥ if partner prefers them, but go higher if they prefer spades (or rarely, clubs)? What sort of hand would that make sense on?

[mike777]

 smerriman, on 2025-July-11, 17:06, said:

Do you mean crawling Stayman? In Garbage Stayman, you pass 2♦. If you play crawling Stayman, then the two auctions don't seem related; on the latter, you're inviting opener to 3NT, while on the former 2♥ shows a weak 3-suiter as it's NF, so 2NT can't exist.

Edit - sorry, I think I understand your question now.. you're suggesting there may be a hand which is willing to play in 2♥ if partner prefers them, but go higher if they prefer spades (or rarely, clubs)? What sort of hand would that make sense on?

Hand I watched
Balanced, 8 HCP, 4H and 2S.
Across from 1NT overcall, standard 15-18.

Perhaps the fact most missing HCP in known hand made a difference.

[ThomasRush]

mike777, on 2025-July-11, 16:53, said:

For this thread, please assume you are playing garbage stayman for both an opening strong NT and overcalling with a strong NT.

1NT-2C
2D-2H
2S-2NT

compared to

1NT-2C
2D-2NT

What would be the distinction?

It seems in option one you have an interest or willingness to stop and play in a 4-3 heart fit, if none exists, in other words the strong NT hand has only 2H, you are willing to play in 2NT?
In option2, you don't.

Do you know or play this style?

Garbage Stayman: Responder bids 2!C and with a weak hand is prepared to pass his partner's response of 2!D, 2!H, or 2!S.
After 1NT - 2!C; 2!D, if responder rebids 2!H or 2!S, he shows a 54 (or 45 when bidding 2!S) hand with invitational values.
The ideal hand pattern for the garbage hand is 4=4=4=1 or some 445=0 (void in clubs). Often done with 4-3 in the majors and a 5-card diamond suit, or 4-3 majors, and 4=2 in the minors (doubleton club). HCP should be so few that any suit contract is preferable to NT. 5HCP in one of the hand shapes listed above is no reason to run from 1NT.

Crawling Stayman: Responder bids 2C and may take opener's 2!D rebid out to two of a major. Responder's 2!H rebid is either drop dead or pass-or-correct, depending on the partnership agreement. It is never as strong as invitational. Responder could be a terribly weak 5-5 major hand (with which he'd transfer if playing garbage Stayman).

There are subtle differences between the two. Unfortunately, most people use the term "garbage Stayman" when they really mean "crawling Stayman", so you have to be careful to establish what your partner really means. A good question to ask to find out: "If the auction goes, 1NT - 2!C; 2!D - 2!H, what's my 2!H bid mean?" "Invitational with five hearts" means you're playing garbage Stayman. Otherwise, crawling.

[ThomasRush]

mike777, on 2025-July-11, 16:53, said:

For this thread, please assume you are playing garbage stayman for both an opening strong NT and overcalling with a strong NT.

1NT-2C
2D-2H
2S-2NT

compared to

1NT-2C
2D-2NT

What would be the distinction?

It seems in option one you have an interest or willingness to stop and play in a 4-3 heart fit, if none exists, in other words the strong NT hand has only 2H, you are willing to play in 2NT?
In option2, you don't.

Do you know or play this style?

Garbage Stayman: Responder bids 2!C and with a weak hand is prepared to pass his partner's response of 2!D, 2!H, or 2!S.
After 1NT - 2!C; 2!D, if responder rebids 2!H or 2!S, he shows a 54 (or 45 when bidding 2!S) hand with invitational values.
The ideal hand pattern for the garbage hand is 4=4=4=1 or some 445=0 (void in clubs). Often done with 4-3 in the majors and a 5-card diamond suit, or 4-3 majors, and 4=2 in the minors (doubleton club). HCP should be so few that any suit contract is preferable to NT. 5HCP in one of the hand shapes listed above is no reason to run from 1NT.

Crawling Stayman: Responder bids 2C and may take opener's 2!D rebid out to two of a major. Responder's 2!H rebid is either drop dead or pass-or-correct, depending on the partnership agreement. It is never as strong as invitational. Responder could be a terribly weak 5-5 major hand (with which he'd transfer if playing garbage Stayman).

There are subtle differences between the two. Unfortunately, most people use the term "garbage Stayman" when they really mean "crawling Stayman", so you have to be careful to establish what your partner really means. A good question to ask to find out: "If the auction goes, 1NT - 2!C; 2!D - 2!H, what's my 2!H bid mean?" "Invitational with five hearts" means you're playing garbage Stayman. Otherwise, crawling.

[mike777]

ThomasRush, on 2025-July-11, 19:02, said:

Garbage Stayman: Responder bids 2!C and with a weak hand is prepared to pass his partner's response of 2!D, 2!H, or 2!S.
After 1NT - 2!C; 2!D, if responder rebids 2!H or 2!S, he shows a 54 (or 45 when bidding 2!S) hand with invitational values.
The ideal hand pattern for the garbage hand is 4=4=4=1 or some 445=0 (void in clubs). Often done with 4-3 in the majors and a 5-card diamond suit, or 4-3 majors, and 4=2 in the minors (doubleton club). HCP should be so few that any suit contract is preferable to NT. 5HCP in one of the hand shapes listed above is no reason to run from 1NT.

Crawling Stayman: Responder bids 2C and may take opener's 2!D rebid out to two of a major. Responder's 2!H rebid is either drop dead or pass-or-correct, depending on the partnership agreement. It is never as strong as invitational. Responder could be a terribly weak 5-5 major hand (with which he'd transfer if playing garbage Stayman).

There are subtle differences between the two. Unfortunately, most people use the term "garbage Stayman" when they really mean "crawling Stayman", so you have to be careful to establish what your partner really means. A good question to ask to find out: "If the auction goes, 1NT - 2!C; 2!D - 2!H, what's my 2!H bid mean?" "Invitational with five hearts" means you're playing garbage Stayman. Otherwise, crawling.

Ty but not my question.

Not asking about the difference between garbage and crawling, if need be assume you are playing either one to answer my question. ty.

What I saw was the option to play 2h in 4-3 heart fit or 2nt, showing 8hcp. I have not seen that option before, am asking has anyone else seen or played it, ty.

As for your definition of garbage stayman, as I come back to bridge perhaps the definition has changed from 50 years ago...what you describe as crawling stayman was taught as garbage..stayman.

[smerriman]

mike777, on 2025-July-11, 18:17, said:

Hand I watched
Balanced, 8 HCP, 4H and 2S.
Across from 1NT overcall, standard 15-18.

Perhaps the fact most missing HCP in known hand made a difference.

What was the opening bid - 1♦? That must make a difference when you're dealing with sequences that show 3 suits.

[mike777]

 smerriman, on 2025-July-11, 19:52, said:

What was the opening bid - 1♦? That must make a difference when you're dealing with sequences that show 3 suits.

The opening bid must of been one of a minor, I forget which.

I don't think they were showing 3 Suits.

I think they were showing balanced hand with 8 HCP and exactly 4 hearts, fewer than 4 Spades. Exactly what they had.
The goal was to play in hearts if 4-3 if not 2NT.
Btw this was a team game, other table played in 2NT.

They did not have a stiff or void.

Edit

But ahhh I think I now understand what the no trump bidder thought...
He thought 2H showed 5, as you posters pointed out, and passed.
Ooops smile.

I wondered why he passed
😊 😁

We have a failure to communicate...

[DavidKok]

There's two questions here. The one posted originally, and the confusion caused by the variants of Stayman in the comments.

Regarding the original question: if 1NT-2♣; 2♦-2♥ is not forcing, it is good to clarify what distributions it includes. Depending on the possible shapes it is wise for opener to pass instead of bidding 2♠ with 3=2 in the majors.
If it is forcing I really need clarification on your system agreements.

In my view responder was willing to have opener pass 2♥, and any continued auction is a runout sequence. We're trying to find a playable partscore. The real issue with the attempt to put some weak hands in the delayed 2NT bid by responder is that it's often a bad idea to run to 2NT. The normal action with a not-very-shapely weak hand is to pass 1NT. 'Running to 2NT' is often awful unless we have more than the balance of strength. If responder really is weak there is a significant benefit from playing in their own long suit, creating entries to the weak hand and controlling the weak side suits. Therefore, generally, you do not run to NT when you're known to be weak. You might try to use 2NT as some minor suit transfer instead, but this runs into another problem: the sequence 1NT-2♣; 2♠-?. Without specialised agreements there is no way to show a weak hand with 4 hearts and a long minor suit on this start, and at the point of bidding 2♣ responder doesn't know that opener doesn't have spades. For this reason most Stayman variations require either strength (8+ or so, at least invitational opposite the 15-17 range - adjust the points if you play a different range) or spades (so that you can cater to any answer).
You might be able to fit weak hands with spades + a minor suit in Stayman. I don't see how you can fit hearts + a minor suit in there, and I don't want to try to bid this way with a weak balanced hand.

The other question is caused by the confusion on the names of Garbage and Crawling Stayman.

smerriman, on 2025-July-11, 17:06, said:

Do you mean crawling Stayman? In Garbage Stayman, you pass 2♦.

ThomasRush, on 2025-July-11, 19:02, said:

Garbage Stayman: Responder bids 2!C and with a weak hand is prepared to pass his partner's response of 2!D, 2!H, or 2!S.
After 1NT - 2!C; 2!D, if responder rebids 2!H or 2!S, he shows a 54 (or 45 when bidding 2!S) hand with invitational values.

To me Garbage and Crawling Stayman mean something different from what you two have described.

[bluenikki]

DavidKok, on 2025-July-12, 01:40, said:

The other question is caused by the confusion on the names of Garbage and Crawling Stayman.
To me Garbage and Crawling Stayman mean something different from what you two have described.

That is why using (alleged) names (with a stranger) is such a bad habit.

[mike777]

 bluenikki, on 2025-July-12, 04:42, said:

That is why using (alleged) names (with a stranger) is such a bad habit.

Good point.
Funny enough this is a partnership that has played together, at least online, for several years, minimum. Certainly two people who have known and discussed bridge together for more than 20 years. Smile.

Per the above posters it appears that the no trump overcaller thought the auction up to 2H was weak and promises 5H and as such passed.

I am guessing here but I think responder, who is older than me, smile, was playing some version of garbage/crawling stayman I had not seen before.

My question was if anyone had seen it before, I guess not.

I think what was being played was, I am guessing

1NT-2C-2D
Could be all inclusive of several options
Weak 3 suited d.h s responder can pass.
Weak 2 suited 4-4 majors responder can pass
8hcp balanced 4 hearts willing to play in hearts or if no heart fit, opener rebids 2S their 3 card suit and responder invites with 2NT.

Anyway thanks to the posters for your time, interesting comments.