[jillybean]

Please NB the forum this is posted in.

You are an inexperienced player playing with another inexperienced player.
15-17 nt, 5 card majors
Short club
Blackwood
4SGF

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[mycroft]

4NT, then 5NT (hey, partner could have one ace and three kings) or 6NT depending on the answer. Obviously. </s>

Seriously, though, for true intermediates, that's not a bad idea. Not a good one, but I've seen a lot worse "straight to blackwood" auctions perpetrated.

Really, even at the I/N level? 1♦ is standout and easy (*). After that, who knows? I'd plan on 4SF, then NT (hopefully 2, unless they show delayed diamond support). But I bet it will still end with ace-asking and potentially king-asking.

(*)Unless they're playing Soloway Jump Shifts. Then 2♦, then NT, is standout and even easier.

[smerriman]

 mycroft, on 2024-September-05, 10:52, said:

(*)Unless they're playing Soloway Jump Shifts. Then 2♦, then NT, is standout and even easier.

With Soloway the balanced type usually has an upper limit, e.g. 17-19, as that's a hard hand type to show otherwise - e.g. Karen Walker stresses *not* to jump shift with 20+ balanced.

But I doubt N/B have learned how to jump shift properly, so 1♦ it is. The difficulty for them will be coming up with the next bid if partner responds 1NT.

[jillybean]

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A very nervous 1D, what if partner passes!

Now is 1♠ natural and 2♠ 4sf, or the other way around? I bet you haven't discussed that.

[Cyberyeti]

 smerriman, on 2024-September-05, 13:48, said:

With Soloway the balanced type usually has an upper limit, e.g. 17-19, as that's a hard hand type to show otherwise - e.g. Karen Walker stresses *not* to jump shift with 20+ balanced.

But I doubt N/B have learned how to jump shift properly, so 1♦ it is. The difficulty for them will be coming up with the next bid if partner responds 1NT.

N/B probably don't open balanced 11, so if they rebid 1N, will bid 6N.

[pescetom]

 jillybean, on 2024-September-05, 10:43, said:

Please NB the forum this is posted in.

Please NB don't use underline to emphasise rather than to indicate a link
There is no lack of alternatives, surrounding asterisks/bold/new colour/big font/exclamation marks or whatever.

Easy for me as it wasn't that long ago.
From what I was taught, 1♦.
If I don't trust my equally inexperienced partner to remember even that and I haven't yet learned that one should, then 6NT hoping he doesn't do anything silly.

[Cyberyeti]

 jillybean, on 2024-September-05, 14:09, said:

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A very nervous 1D, what if partner passes!

1♠ if it's 4SF, 2♠ if that's my 4SF bid

[pescetom]

 jillybean, on 2024-September-05, 14:09, said:

Now is 1♠ natural and 2♠ 4sf, or the other way around? I bet you haven't discussed that.

I was actually taught that 1♠ here was forcing and 4sf did not apply.
But assuming a more mainstream approach, I would expect 4th suit to be forcing if that's what it's called.
What the heck kind of general principle is it if it only works after a jump?

[apollo1201]

My inexperienced partner will not let me down in 1S as they know they have to do sth intellingent over that.

But as un experienced as I am, I know that I won t be able to properly follow up and I will not torture partner and my self too long when I know the 90% chance of Destination

Maybe with 18 points 3423 (inexperienced partner was taught that 2NT rebid denies a biddable 4cM), partner will guess to raise.

[smerriman]

 pescetom, on 2024-September-05, 14:37, said:

I was actually taught that 1♠ here was forcing and 4sf did not apply.
But assuming a more mainstream approach, I would expect 4th suit to be forcing if that's what it's called.
What the heck kind of general principle is it if it only works after a jump?

Based on this poll, 1♠ as natural and 2♠ as 4SF was a heavy favorite. But undiscussed with an inexperienced partner I'd probably start with 1♠ as if partner raises our 2♠ thinking it's natural, I'm more in likely to get in trouble. Though 6NT is going to end most auctions regardless.

[jillybean]

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After whichever version of 4sf you play, partner will raise spades.

If you launched into 6nt earlier, please explain why.

To save another post, if you KC in spades, suprise! they show 1

 pescetom, on 2024-September-05, 14:37, said:

What the heck kind of general principle is it if it only works after a jump?

I agree!

[Cyberyeti]

I'm totally out of my comfort zone with this auction, can partner still be 4432 when they raise spades ?

[mycroft]

Depends on what 1♣-p-3NT shows. These days it's 13-15 (one of the reasons I like the older style, not that I can get anybody to play it), so yeah, Soloway-and-NT is 16+, and maybe this is too big even yet. Back in the day it was bigger (but then again, back in the day, 1♣-2NT (GF); 3NT-4NT would show this hand as well as 2♦-then-NT).

[pescetom]

 smerriman, on 2024-September-05, 15:11, said:

Based on this poll, 1♠ as natural and 2♠ as 4SF was a heavy favorite. But undiscussed with an inexperienced partner I'd probably start with 1♠ as if partner raises our 2♠ thinking it's natural, I'm more in likely to get in trouble. Though 6NT is going to end most auctions regardless.

I wasn't able to poll and then view, it went in a loop for some reason.

[jillybean]

 Cyberyeti, on 2024-September-05, 15:36, said:

I'm totally out of my comfort zone with this auction, can partner still be 4432 when they raise spades ?

Yes

 mycroft, on 2024-September-05, 15:46, said:

Depends on what 1♣-p-3NT shows. These days it's 13-15 (one of the reasons I like the older style, not that I can get anybody to play it), so yeah, Soloway-and-NT is 16+, and maybe this is too big even yet. Back in the day it was bigger (but then again, back in the day, 1♣-2NT (GF); 3NT-4NT would show this hand as well as 2♦-then-NT).

1♣ - 3nt should be forbidden

[pescetom]

 jillybean, on 2024-September-05, 18:06, said:

1♣ - 3nt should be forbidden

To Novices and Beginners?
It shows a hand without a 4 card major that can probably make 3NT opposite a minimum (short) 1♣ opening.
More or less Natural and one can do a lot worse.

[jillybean]

 pescetom, on 2024-September-05, 14:11, said:

Please NB don't use underline to emphasise rather than to indicate a link

Did you run out and buy new batteries for your mouse?

1C - 3nt - is the no alternative?


Here's the full hand

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[pescetom]

 jillybean, on 2024-September-06, 15:19, said:

Did you run out and buy new batteries for your mouse?

I've been on a cell phone for most of the recent posts, if that is an issue.

 jillybean, on 2024-September-06, 15:19, said:

1C - 3nt - is the no alternative?

I only disagreed with your suggestion that the sequence should be forbidden (I imagined intended in general).

 jillybean, on 2024-September-06, 15:19, said:

Here's the full hand

Of course it would be idiotic for South to bid 3NT or stop anywhere below 6NT.
I'm encouraged that people in NA have finally learned to open that hand 1♣.

[thepossum]

You could hope for 1C-1D-iH- 4NT but Blackwood is not safe in any other suit

I put that hand in a bidding engine and it went Pass-2NT-4NT-6NT

I think I would have tried 2D but who knows after that

[jillybean]

pescetom, on 2024-September-06, 15:25, said:

I'm encouraged that people in NA have finally learned to open that hand 1♣.

I misled you, others would open that 1D

thepossum, on 2024-September-09, 17:53, said:

You could hope for 1C-1D-iH- 4NT but Blackwood is not safe in any other suit

I put that hand in a bidding engine and it went Pass-2NT-4NT-6NT

I think I would have tried 2D but who knows after that

Does the simulation really pass with North's hand?

I don't yet know how this hand was bid, other than badly. I will find out more this week.
I do think it is a difficult hand for a newbie to bid.