[AL78]

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MPs, Acol weak NT partnering a good club player. What do you do now?

[smerriman]

I don't know much about Acol, but a system that uses that definition of a 3NT, removing all space to do anything constructive, seems contradictory to the idea of a good player.

Perhaps we should just return the favor and bid 6♦ But more seriously, in this position I don't think I can pass, so I guess I'll just try 4♦, which has to show slam interest.

[AL78]

 smerriman, on 2024-June-24, 03:26, said:

I don't know much about Acol, but a system that uses that definition of a 3NT, removing all space to do anything constructive, seems contradictory to the idea of a good player.

He is good at least relative to the club as a whole, has represented the club in county events and on odd occasions when I have partnered him in the past he is good enough to carry me to a decent result. This was a one-off scratch partnership, he normally plays 5CM but we agreed to play Acol to KISS. Traditionally Acol's balanced hands are 1NT opening 12-14, 1X - 1Y - 1NT = 15-16, 1X - 1Y - 2NT = 17-18 and 1X - 1Y - 3NT = 19 HCP. Personally I hate jumping to 3NT on strong balanced hands so prefer 1X - 1Y - 1NT = 15-17, 1X - 1Y - 2NT is 18-19, 1X - 1Y - 3NT = hand with long running suit but we didn't go into that level of detail.

[Cyberyeti]

6♦ at least has the advantage that if pd has KQx, KQ, AKxx, Qxxx that you have a chance of getting away with it, where going slowly might allow a double (or the lack of a double of spades) to suggest a club lead, but 4♦ is best I think.

[thepossum]

 smerriman, on 2024-June-24, 03:26, said:

I don't know much about Acol, but a system that uses that definition of a 3NT, removing all space to do anything constructive, seems contradictory to the idea of a good player.

Perhaps we should just return the favor and bid 6♦ But more seriously, in this position I don't think I can pass, so I guess I'll just try 4♦, which has to show slam interest.

I actually needed to check and exactly 19 points, strangely, is the EBU (sorry what appears to be the EBU Acol) standard

So I pass

NB I find it remarkable to have such a precise bid
NB2 Sad that there is no room left - what does 4NT mean? But 11+19=30
NB3 Is there not a better way to explore the hand? 3NT is 3NT I guess

[AL78]

 thepossum, on 2024-June-24, 05:58, said:

I actually needed to check and exactly 19 points, strangely, is the EBU standard

So I pass

NB I find it remarkable to have such a precise bid
NB2 Sad that there is no room left - what does 4NT mean? But 11+19=30

4NT is quantitative, bid six if you have anything extra, which given the precise HCP already shown, would mean extras in terms of trick taking potential.

[thepossum]

 AL78, on 2024-June-24, 06:10, said:

4NT is quantitative, bid six if you have anything extra, which given the precise HCP already shown, would mean extras in terms of trick taking potential.

thx but if you know the points that precisely why a quant

sorry I edited my post slightly but not enough to negate your comment

[AL78]

 thepossum, on 2024-June-24, 06:16, said:

thx but if you know the points that precisely why a quant

sorry I edited my post slightly but not enough to negate your comment

Even with an exact HCP count, there are good and bad hands, e.g.:

Good 19 count, arguably should be upgraded to 20-21 HCP:
♠AJT
♥KQT
♦AKJT9
♣J8

Bad 19 count, arguably should be downgraded to 18:
♠QJ32
♥KJ5
♦KQJ
♣KQJ

[AL78]

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I decided to look for the slam and punted it after receiving some cooperative responses from partner. Unfortunately it was on a finesse or dropping a stiff offside heart honor and guessing right, neither of which came to pass. A joint bottom wioth the pair who went off in 6♥.

I thought partner was cueing the heart king, I didn't realise at the time he was trying to show secondary heart support, but that is why I don't like this double jump to 3NT, it shuts out the space for that sort of investigation.

[Cyberyeti]

Our auction on that hand:

1♦-1♥
1N (15-bad 19)-2♣ (asking)
2N (17-bad 19 3343 GF)

and now you're on a bit of a guess, does partner have Qxx, KQx, AKxx, Axx or what he actually has

So you bid 3♦ and he bids 3N showing black suit values and you sign off in 4♥

[pescetom]

 AL78, on 2024-June-24, 07:09, said:

I thought partner was cueing the heart king, I didn't realise at the time he was trying to show secondary heart support, but that is why I don't like this double jump to 3NT, it shuts out the space for that sort of investigation.

Partner gets the blame you hoped for, 4D sets trumps and requests a control-bid: there's no room for both that treatment and showing secondary hearts. That's another reason why the 3NT convention is awful in the first place.

[mw64ahw]

Jumps of this nature should only be made when the jump fully describes the hand and in this case you need to decide whether the jump shows 3253/3343 with 3 small ♥ or COG 3343. If undecided then take the slow route with Qxx in ♥. In this case I think you correctly assumed that ♦ was the trump suit for the slam try.

Even taking the slow route I would probably end up in 6♥

[pescetom]

 mw64ahw, on 2024-June-24, 09:09, said:

Even taking the slow route I would probably end up in 6♥

Except on Friday I think we would probably stop in 5♥: South puts the brakes on knowing that we are missing a keycard and spades Q, plus doubt about diamonds honours that North has not had the opportunity to describe.

[thepossum]

So pass was OK
How did 3NT score �� (EDIT apparently it makes 5NT)

If there are good and bad NT hands don't you use the upgraded or downgraded points in the first place or is that not permitted