[AL78]

This hand came up in the informal beginner practice session (i.e. not a duplicate session). I thought the two beginners I observed did well to go for the slam:

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They were playing Acol, weak NT.

Initially I thought North was strong enough to jump to 3♥ to get the strength across but that consumes a lot of space and 2♥ should be forcing anyway, although somehow North has to find a way to show their extras. As it happened South went straight to 3NT which must show an opening strength hand so North went straight to the slam. Is there a good way to find the grand, it can sometimes be tricky with a lot of power but no fit.

[LBengtsson]

If you can open 2NT showing 20-21, or 20-22 here, or maybe through a multi 2♦ with a big hand included, that is what I would do. Opening 1♠ just creates problems imo.

[jillybean]

Wouldn't 2♥ after 1♠ be forcing only if 2♣ is gf?

North should open 2NT now South needs to use some sort of minor suit stayman 3♠?

[akwoo]

You need either clubs or hearts to split or some squeeze for 13 tricks. The grand is probably more than 50%, but I think 6N is the better contract unless you're in a top event.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

2H is fine as long as it is forcing,...,and I am not sure this is the case for all players playing
Acol with weak NT. I am not sure, to which level a 2/1 forces. My Acol Days are long past.
I am pretty sure, that a 2S bid by opener is not forcing, and I am not sure, if a 2H rebid by opener
changes this a lot.
In my opinion opener needs to make the 3H jump to create a force.

The take away would be to discuss: if responder can pass or if he has to find a bid.

Give responder

5 clubs,
4 diamonds (ideally xxxx)
3 hearts
1 spade

and 10HCP

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mikeh]

 jillybean, on 2023-March-07, 12:48, said:

Wouldn't 2♥ after 1♠ be forcing only if 2♣ is gf?

North should open 2NT now South needs to use some sort of minor suit stayman 3♠?

I don’t know Acol but in SA I’m pretty sure 2H is a one round force and I suspect, strongly, that’s it’s the same in Acol

I may be wrong but I think that 2C promises a rebid unless opener rebids his suit, so 1S 2C 2S is nf. Frankly, I think that is almost unplayable in a serious imp game (because having to jump or use artificiality to force distorts game and, especially, slam bidding too often) but could generate some pickups in a mp event.

As for north opening 2N: if any partner or prospective partner said that they thought that was a good idea, that would be the end of the partnership. I’m not joking: 2N is, imo, a piggish hand-hogging distortion. Now, if you’ve perverted your response structure to allow opener to show 5=4=2=2 with strong majors…and didn’t thereby ruin dealing with more common hands, then maybe.

I play a complex 2N structure which would have to be thrown in the toilet if we permitted this

I don’t see any gain at all

Btw for us 1S 1N 3C is gf but expressly may have precisely 4H, and we rarely pass 1S (virtually never with the sort of hand that allows game to make opposite this opener).

I doubt I’d reach 7N. It’s a very good contract. Mo far higher than 50%. 3-3 clubs or Jx or stiff J or an unlikely club lead is 13, and hearts 3-3 or doubleton J10 or 5-1 with stiff J or 10 on the right, or a squeeze

As for squeezes, there is going to be one most of the time, but one may need to guess we’ll, especially if the opps don’t telegraph their shape. Honest count givers are wonderful to play against��

This is a hand on which a good forcing club structure would likely shine

Edit: my tendency towards hyperbole may be evident here��

[LBengtsson]

 AL78, on 2023-March-07, 12:26, said:

Initially I thought North was strong enough to jump to 3♥ to get the strength across

You are right, jillybean. I had a look at some Acol (not my strong point) bidding after mikeh rightly criticized my (top heavy major suit) 2NT opening. North should show his hand by rebidding 3♥ here showing 18-20 and it is a GF. What concerned me is 3♥ showed at least 5/5M but that is not the case. A 2♣ response in Acol only shows 8+ (it said this on a few sites) so if opener is rebidding 2♥ only, except if you have an agreement that 2♣ promise another bid, responder could pass with something like ♠x ♥Qxx ♦xxxx ♣AKxxx or would that hand bid 1NT (even with the stiff ♠) as a response as opposed to 2♣?

A 2♥ rebid by opener here could promise no more than a 5♠4♥ 11 count only.

[P_Marlowe]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acol

Opener's suit rebid after one-level opening
<snip>
Bid of new suit at lower level than first suit — minimum hand, 12–15 HCP, first suit has at least as many cards as second suit, non-forcing.

The thing is, it is not the final word on this topic, ..., but they should discuss it.
And I dont want to argue the merrits or the lack of merrits.

[Cyberyeti]

2♥ is basically forcing in most modern forms of Acol where the 2/1 is a little stronger than it is in old fashiond Acol.

You can bid 1♠-2♣-2N (ostensibly balanced and GF) and see what partner does, we actually have the explicit agreement that this 2N bid doesn't have to be balanced, so 1♠-2♣-2N-3m-3♥ shows this hand type 18+ 5+♠, 4+♥ with the wrinkle that big 5-5s we open 1♥.

[jillybean]

I don't know ACOL but it seems as useful as saying I play SA, or 2/1 with as many variants as there are beers in the bottle store here.
As for Mike's criticism of my 2NT opening, I recognize that it is a piggish hand-hogging distortion and I know one of my biggest faults is to master mind the auction, I feel that I need to tell partner I have a 20-21 hand here. With an unknown partner I do not know if 2♥ would be forcing.
Perhaps until I do stop distorting my hand, I won't find a better partner.

[AL78]

 LBengtsson, on 2023-March-07, 14:30, said:

A 2♣ response in Acol only shows 8+ (it said this on a few sites)

That is how some of the veteran members at my club were taught but we don't teach that to beginners. A 2/1 in Acol shows a good nine count minimum. My understanding (and I have mostly played Acol) is that a new suit by opener after a 2/1 is forcing for one round.

[Cyberyeti]

 jillybean, on 2023-March-07, 15:21, said:

I don't know ACOL but it seems as useful as saying I play SA, or 2/1 with as many variants as there are beers in the bottle store here.
As for Mike's criticism of my 2NT opening, I recognize that it is a piggish hand-hogging distortion and I know one of my biggest faults is to master mind the auction, I feel that I need to tell partner I have a 20-21 hand here. With an unknown partner I do not know if 2♥ would be forcing.
Perhaps until I do stop distorting my hand, I won't find a better partner.

The problem with 2N is what are you going to do when partner enquires about your majors ? most people play some form of 5 card stayman, and you get to show 53 or 44 but not 54.

[jillybean]

I'll consider my spade suit a 4 card suit and show both 4 card majors

[nullve]

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nullve(N)-nullve(S):

1♠(1)-2♣(2)
2♦(3)-2♥(4)
2♠(5)-2N(6)
3♥(7)-3♠(8)
3N(9)-4♦(10)
4♥(11)-4♠(12)
5♥(13)-5♠(14)
5N(15)-6♦(16)
6N(17)-7N(18)
P

(1) "10-21, 5+ S, unBAL"
(2) "NAT (GF), not-too-unBAL (GF) or SUPP (INV+)"
(3) a) "10-12, any" b) "19-21, either 4+ H or one-suited"
(4) relay, some slam interest even opposite a)
(5) b) (with room to spare)
(6) relay
(7) usually either 5422, 64(21) or 6+S4+H0C
(8) relay
(9) 19-21 hcp, 5422
(10) key card ask with C as trumps
(11) even # of key cards
(12) trump Q ask
(13) trump Q, ♠K, ♥K, no ♦K
(14) ♠Q ask
(15) no ♠K
(16) ♥Q ask
(17) ♥Q, ♦Q, no ♠J
(18) contract

[smerriman]

 jillybean, on 2023-March-07, 16:19, said:

I'll consider my spade suit a 4 card suit and show both 4 card majors

That's an option, but missing all of the 5-3 spade fits seems far too dangerous to me, especially with Qx in clubs. If you're unsure whether 1♠ then 2♥ is forcing opposite a weak partner, then 1♠ then 3♥ should be (not in 2/1 where it's a splinter, of course!)

[thepossum]

I feel embarrassed to comment but if I were my own partner it could have gone 2NT-6NT - because my 2NT (19-20 + 15 =6NT)

Hopefully more like the auction at the top, although I would likely have bid 3H - I appreciate you don't have to force at that stage - hopefully - but is it not regarded as the strongest option??

Curiously one of the Acol refs I am reading (since I am a bit rusty) would have opened that 2C, possibly

Been a while since I played Acol seriously with an real partner so I can't remember

[jillybean]

 smerriman, on 2023-March-07, 16:29, said:

That's an option, but missing all of the 5-3 spade fits seems far too dangerous to me, especially with Qx in clubs. If you're unsure whether 1♠ then 2♥ is forcing opposite a weak partner, then 1♠ then 3♥ should be (not in 2/1 where it's a splinter, of course!)

Does anyone consider 1S 3H to be a distortion?

[the hog]

A 2NT opening is a poor choice on this hand with 5-4 Majors. 5-4 minors is a different story. The problem is that it will b very difficult to find a 5-3 Spade fit. I notice a comment above that states that a 2/1 in Acol shows a good 9 count. This is also a very old fashioned idea. Modern Acolites nowadays play that a 2/1 is forcing to 2NT.
I would probably not get to 7 though I would like to be there.

[mikeh]

 jillybean, on 2023-March-07, 18:35, said:

Does anyone consider 1S 3H to be a distortion?

It’s entirely system dependent. I don’t know Acol well enough (when I played it..more accurately played at it, 45 years ago, it was based on then-old texts) to have a view as to what 1S 2C 2H shows

In modern NA bridge, ignoring big club methods, there are two schools of thought, but the existence of my preferred method is contingent on 2C being gf. The school I follow has 1S 2m 3H as a splinter in support of the minor…and it doesn’t even show extras..it tends to deny them. The other, old-fashioned school has 3H as natural and forcing

While I know which I prefer (and have what seem to me to be good arguments for) I think some fine players might differ and it really comes down to what partner expects.

For me, 1S 2C 2H 2N would be the start

I think north can simply bid 6N now, but that strikes me as conservative. However, that’s because I’d play 2N as expressing doubt about 3N…either as to strain or level…if level, then 6N is an underbid. Conservative it may be (imagine south with x Axx KJx AKxxxx) but the alternative of 3C suggests 5413 while not hinting at the strength.

I don’t think south can move over 6N if bid over 2N….picture AKQxx KQxx AQx x or AQ xx in the minors, still 20 hcp. That club queen, as opposed to the spade queen is huge

[Cyberyeti]

 the hog, on 2023-March-07, 20:01, said:

A 2NT opening is a poor choice on this hand with 5-4 Majors. 5-4 minors is a different story. The problem is that it will b very difficult to find a 5-3 Spade fit. I notice a comment above that states that a 2/1 in Acol shows a good 9 count. This is also a very old fashioned idea. Modern Acolites nowadays play that a 2/1 is forcing to 2NT.
I would probably not get to 7 though I would like to be there.

I don't know anybody who plays 2/1 F2N here in the home of Acol, 1♥-2♣-2♥ is droppable with the understanding that if you're not prepared to bid 2♠ over this you should have responded 1♠ not 2♣ with 4-5.