[jillybean]

Here is the hand from the my other thread (What to do?)

---

West opened this hand 2♣, and I think I would too. I later said if I was 0562 I would happily open 1♦, and bid hearts later.
To which pescetom replied;

 pescetom, on 2023-February-21, 03:18, said:

If you are comfortable with 6-5 then why not with 6-4 and a void?
Normal I/A systems have robust methods for bidding with shapes like this starting from level 1.
Starting to describe this hand from level 3 is a hopeless task for players of any level.

This has me thinking, my comment that I'd happily open 1♦ with 0562 was rather flippant, I have always considered 65 substantially stronger than a 64 hand and haven't given much thought to shapely 64 hands. Should I consider this hand a 2 suiter, I'm not exactly comfortable bidding 2♥ with 4 after partner responds 1♠, how does partner distinguish between a 65 and a 64 hand here?

Add to that this hand which we were considering opening 1♥, our 1 level openings are 7-22

---

[smerriman]

 jillybean, on 2023-February-24, 02:32, said:

I'm not exactly comfortable bidding 2♥ with 4 after partner responds 1♠, how does partner distinguish between a 65 and a 64 hand here?

The usual advice about 6-5 hands is that it's OK to reverse with less HCP than a normal reverse, because you can rebid your 5 card suit a second time, showing 6-5. If you had 6-4, you only bid it once, then go back to your first suit.

[jillybean]

 smerriman, on 2023-February-24, 02:37, said:

The usual advice about 6-5 hands is that it's OK to reverse with less HCP than a normal reverse, because you can rebid your 5 card suit a second time, showing 6-5. If you had 6-4, you only bid it once, then go back to your first suit.

Partner could pass 2♥ with a 6331/5314 type hand? I have only shown 18+, not a hand with a prime 21 count. I guess I'm masterminding again but it appears that opening 2♣ would allow for an easier auction.

[smerriman]

No, a reverse is forcing.

[jillybean]

Yes, but partner is allowed to use their judgement and if they have stretched to respond and found a misfit, pass becomes a "logical alternative"?
I think it is also dependant on how strong your 2♣ opening is.

[smerriman]

Well, you can use your judgement and pass an artificial 2♣ opener when holding a weak hand with clubs too. But your partner is unlikely to be very happy A reverse is just as unlimited as a 2♣ opener.

[helene_t]

 smerriman, on 2023-February-24, 03:29, said:

Well, you can use your judgement and pass an artificial 2♣ opener when holding a weak hand with clubs too. But your partner is unlikely to be very happy A reverse is just as unlimited as a 2♣ opener.

Is that so? While a 2♣ opener could have 12 tricks in his own hand, a reverse follows a non-forcing 1-level opening. There's a certain logic to passing the reverse with a yarb short in the opening suit, as normal people would have passed the opening so we wouldn't have reached game anyway.

I realize this isn't waterproof as sometimes opps balance when we pass the opening so sometimes we reach game anyway.

[smerriman]

 helene_t, on 2023-February-24, 04:20, said:

Is that so? While a 2♣ opener could have 12 tricks in his own hand, a reverse follows a non-forcing 1-level opening.

Saw a hand talked about just today on BridgeWinners where someone held 11 tricks in their hand and people were still suggesting opening at the one level. I guess you can pass, but you'd better be right.. and shouldn't be limiting your reverses out of fear this will happen regularly.

[Cyberyeti]

 smerriman, on 2023-February-24, 04:24, said:

Saw a hand talked about just today on BridgeWinners where someone held 11 tricks in their hand and people were still suggesting opening at the one level. I guess you can pass, but you'd better be right.. and shouldn't be limiting your reverses out of fear this will happen regularly.

If you're going to open an 11 trick hand at the one level it better be VERY shapely and low in points so somebody acts. KQJ 9th AQJ10 for example, particularly without the spade suit.

I have previous for passing an 11 trick hand, void, Ax, x, 10 solid as I reckoned I'd get more info from what happened next than if I bid but 1♣ would have worked just as well. I arrived on the second round with 6♣, lost IMPs, they were doubled at the other table, partner had ♥K.

[helene_t]

 smerriman, on 2023-February-24, 04:24, said:

Saw a hand talked about just today on BridgeWinners where someone held 11 tricks in their hand and people were still suggesting opening at the one level. I guess you can pass, but you'd better be right.. and shouldn't be limiting your reverses out of fear this will happen regularly.

Oh yes you can't limit the reverses as all other bids have a different meaning. Maybe
1♣-1♥
6♦
is natural, but I wouldn't be sure

[AL78]

 helene_t, on 2023-February-24, 04:20, said:

Is that so? While a 2♣ opener could have 12 tricks in his own hand, a reverse follows a non-forcing 1-level opening. There's a certain logic to passing the reverse with a yarb short in the opening suit, as normal people would have passed the opening so we wouldn't have reached game anyway.

I can't think of many situations where I would respond to a one level suit opening with a Yarborough, regardless or shortage in partner's suit.

[helene_t]

 AL78, on 2023-February-24, 05:02, said:

I can't think of many situations where I would respond to a one level suit opening with a Yarborough, regardless or shortage in partner's suit.

Yes you are right. Maybe something like xxxx-Kxxxx-xxx-x.

[DavidKok]

Some remarks and observations, not all of them useful:

• When you open the bidding with 2♣ you are committed to only describing your shape at the 2- or sometimes 3-level. This problem is so serious that it is completely standard to lump a whole range of shapes into the 2NT rebid just to catch up with the auction (e.g. 6m322, 5422, 5431 even if the singleton is small, even some 6m331). Regardless of agreements having opened this high is a downside if partner does turn out to have a hand worth a normal response (say, ~6 HCP or so), where you have voluntarily burned almost two levels of bidding space.
  
• A lot of modern systems have tools to create forcing auctions on a wide range of hands after a 1-level opening. Even if these are '99% forcing' (i.e. technically NF but partner will almost always bid more) this will usually let the partnership scramble to a good or even best contract. Some examples include reverses, strong jump shifts, Gazzilli, artificial 2NT and splinters.
  
• For a 2♣ opening to win compared to a 1-level opening you need all of the following:
  • Game was making(/a better contract would have been reached opening 2♣).
    
  • Partner had a sub-minimum response/would have passed a 1-level bid or 99% forcing rebid.
    
  • The opponents didn't keep the auction open.
  I prefer to only open 2♣ when there is a realistic risk that all three are the case. Typically this happens when I have a lot of HCP. Shapely hands with a lot of trick-taking potential are strong enough to open 2♣, but fail all three of the above criteria. When we have less HCP and more shape everybody else is more likely to bid, and game depends on support as much as it does on strength opposite. You might have an 11-trick hand and still prefer opening at the 1-level. I usually condense this to "only open 2♣ if you are genuinely worried that you will get passed out on the 1-level if you open there instead". The hands where you have a, say, 18HCP two-suited monster worth 10 tricks in a major just don't get passed out. There are too many values and there is too much shape around the table.
  
• I somewhat frequently see beginners construct perfect hands for partner with 2-4 HCP where game is on (usually with a fit in opener's second suit, often a major) and exclaim "Look! Opposite this garbage we have game! Therefore we should open 2♣!". Realistically the window where you get passed out while game is available is very slim, especially with modern tendencies to respond at the 1-level with garbage. Plus, you have two opponents too. We have a fit and only slightly over half the deck in points (shapely strong hand opposite sub-minimum response), so the opponents likely have a fit and some values. And if you do get passed out, who is to say you would have found the right spot over 2♣? Those strong auctions are a nightmare!
  
• Keep in mind that opening at the 1-level with shapely strong hands also wins on slam auctions, simply by describing the hands at a lower level without a risk that you get passed out.
  
• Repeating/summarising the above: I think whether or not 2♣ is the best opening bid depends on a lot of factors other than your trick-taking potential. The strong 2♣ opening is a necessary evil in natural systems, but with modern bidding tools you can stretch the 1-level openings much further than before. And you should. Reserve 2♣ for the hands that, despite all the downsides, still can't risk a 1-level opening. Just strength isn't enough, you need a high risk of being passed out. Sometimes someone presents an example of a shapely 19-count with an 8-card minor suit (or the likes) and explains that since the trick-taking potential is high this is suitable for a 2♣ opening - to me this is insane. You are deliberately crippling your strong auction by starting at the 3-level, while the 1-level opening has almost no downside.
  
• I strongly feel that most sub-minimum responses at the 1-level should just bite the bullet with some shape and bid as if they have full values. It is often technically superior to smoothly settle in some low partscore, but most bidding systems aren't equipped to deal with this. If you respond on (say) 3HCP and a 5-card spade suit either take your lumps and drop partner in one of those 99% forcing bids or go to game. From a system design perspective it also doesn't make a lot of sense to have multiple partscore-oriented sequences for very strong opposite very weak hands - this is a low frequency situation, and it is usually not even clear that partscore (and if so, which one) is best.
  
• In line with all the above my 1-level openings are approximately 9-23 or so, especially in the minor suits. With a shape hand with a short major the risk of getting passed out is very low. The major suit openings are closer to 9-21. When we have a major suit we can describe our shape at the 2-level after opening 2♣, plus the risk of getting passed at the 1-level is higher.
  
• As an aside Dutch Doubleton solves most, if not all, problems with strong hands with long clubs. And as mentioned above hands with a long major can be shown reasonably effectively. So it's really just the long diamond hands where I need to be on my toes, in particular the auction 1♦-1♠; 2♥ (though note that gadgets exist on this auction too, if you wish to solve this 'problem').

[jillybean]

Thanks

[foobar]

Opening 1♦ seems right for the reasons that @DavidKok mentioned. While it's possible that partner might pass the opening, the opponents will often save the day, and on this hand, the auction might go: 1♦ - (1♠) - P - (2♠)- X, etc.

[TylerE]

 jillybean, on 2023-February-24, 03:23, said:

Yes, but partner is allowed to use their judgement and if they have stretched to respond and found a misfit, pass becomes a "logical alternative"

Not in my universe. If you can't trust that your forcing bids are actually forcing how can you function? I might also suggest that you have disclosure issues if "judgement" can turn "forcing" into "not forcing".

[bluenikki]

 jillybean, on 2023-February-24, 02:32, said:

Here is the hand from the my other thread (What to do?)

---

West opened this hand 2♣, and I think I would too. I later said if I was 0562 I would happily open 1♦, and bid hearts later.
To which pescetom replied;




This has me thinking, my comment that I'd happily open 1♦ with 0562 was rather flippant, I have always considered 65 substantially stronger than a 64 hand and haven't given much thought to shapely 64 hands. Should I consider this hand a 2 suiter, I'm not exactly comfortable bidding 2♥ with 4 after partner responds 1♠, how does partner distinguish between a 65 and a 64 hand here?

Add to that this hand which we were considering opening 1♥, our 1 level openings are 7-22

---

we were taught "7-4: bid some more."

[thepossum]

The more I see these discussions the more I realise I need a partner to play Precision with me
..or at least some bid that forces for one round
Meaning I would have had to bid 2C with that hand - but maybe struggled to force to slam
Almost better planning the reverse and risking playing 1D

[DavidKok]

 thepossum, on 2023-February-24, 23:10, said:

The more I see these discussions the more I realise I need a partner to play Precision with me
..or at least some bid that forces for one round
Meaning I would have had to bid 2C with that hand - but maybe struggled to force to slam
Almost better planning the reverse and risking playing 1D

1♣*-(2♠)-P*-(3♠) and back to you. Your call?

[jillybean]

 bluenikki, on 2023-February-24, 18:41, said:

we were taught "7-4: bid some more."

That works too, I'd say 7-4 bid much more.