[AL78]

---

MPs, 5CM strong NT. What do you bid?

[Cyberyeti]

3♥, plenty of playing strength for this, partner may pass on hands where game is on a spade finesse, but hopefully not many where it's cold

[AL78]

I bid 3♥ (too much playing strength for 2♥) and it worked out badly as partner got too enthusiastic:

---

♣A led followed by a club to the king killed it immediately.

This was a scratch partnership so we haven't really got any feel for each other's bidding style.

[Cyberyeti]

AL78, on 2022-October-22, 01:35, said:

I bid 3♥ (too much playing strength for 2♥) and it worked out badly as partner got too enthusiastic:

---

♣A led followed by a club to the king killed it immediately.

This was a scratch partnership so we haven't really got any feel for each other's bidding style.

He didn't get too enthusiastic, he used blackwood inappropriately, snookering himself into bidding 6 with 2 possible losers, although without concrete agreements it's hard (is 4♦ over 3♥ a cue or 5-5 ?). If 4♠ was kickback he could have passed 5♥, this is a cuebid auction but you need agreements on how to agree hearts and get into one. You need to know what (if 4♦ initially suggests 5-5) 1♥-1♠-3♥-4♦-4♥-5♥ means, bid 6 without 2 club losers would be one possibility.

[DavidKok]

4NT was a serious underbid but I'd just have passed it with your hand, being a minimum for your 3♥.

After the mandatory announcement that this should be quantitative, there's nothing more to say. Once partner bids Blackwood they claim they know the level after finding the number of key cards (or can find the right level after a followup bid). Evidently they had no idea. The whole kickback suggestion is also useless - your partner was lacking insight into the requirements for slam, and a convention saving one step of bidding space wouldn't have done any good (you still have those same 4 out of 5 keycards, you are never passing 5♥!). I would highly recommend you convince your partner to never ever jump on a slam auction. There are situations where it is correct, but they are so rare that you can live without them.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2022-October-22, 03:16, said:

4NT was a serious underbid but I'd just have passed it with your hand, being a minimum for your 3♥.

After the mandatory announcement that this should be quantitative, there's nothing more to say. Once partner bids Blackwood they claim they know the level after finding the number of key cards (or can find the right level after a followup bid). Evidently they had no idea. The whole kickback suggestion is also useless - your partner was lacking insight into the requirements for slam, and a convention saving one step of bidding space wouldn't have done any good (you still have those same 4 out of 5 keycards, you are never passing 5♥!). I would highly recommend you convince your partner to never ever jump on a slam auction. There are situations where it is correct, but they are so rare that you can live without them.

The sort of person that uses blackwood on this hand (and I'm sure they meant it as blackwood) does pass 5♥ after kickback.

How do you recommend they actually bid this without firm agreements ?

[dokoko]

I would rebid 2♥. Partner needs to cover 2½ losers and will have an invite on most hands where he does. But that shouldn't have mattered on this hand.

[mw64ahw]

This is a 7 loser hand using a modified approach and only 13 hcp so for me the playing strength is not there and 2♥ would be my bid.

As East I have slam intentions so continue with 3♦ as I don't want to have retrospectively shown a ♣ control and would expect to see West bid 4♥ with their hand. Playing Kickbo after this finds the 2 ♣ losers so you stop in 5♥.

Playing a Kaplan Inversion and Nebulous 2♣ approach the auction starts
1♥-2♣
2♦ Min-2♥ Shape?
3♥ self-sustaining.
This allows you to stop in 4♥ when a ♣ cue-bid isn't forthcoming.

A Gazzilli type approach within KI also allows you to distinguish between hcp strengths. In this case a direct 3♥ is the 6 loser hand with lower hcp while a delayed 3♥ shows the stronger hcp hand.

[DavidKok]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-October-22, 04:07, said:

The sort of person that uses blackwood on this hand (and I'm sure they meant it as blackwood) does pass 5♥ after kickback.

How do you recommend they actually bid this without firm agreements ?

I wouldn't know who would pass at the 5-level missing only one key card, but it's mostly a moot point. Maybe kickback would have let this partner stop at 5♥ but that's hardly a recommendation for the method.
I would have bid 4♦, a control confirming hearts. Normally this is last train but when we skip so many other bids it promises a control - it's simply not possible to have a last train bid missing both club and diamond controls. A Serious 3NT would be even better but that requires firm agreements, in my partnership this is 'to play' (even though 3♥ normally initiates control bidding). It's not ideal but partner made the choice to jump to 3♥, and we have to live with it. Also a bare ace is pretty much a doubleton in support anyway . For the record: I think 3♥ is a fine bid, especially when playing Gazzilli but also good without that convention.

[P_Marlowe]

2H is enough.
2H showes a 6 carder, not a solid suit, but still a 6 carder,
you have opening values, not min, but not max either, the 7th card can be shown later.

If you cant stand 2H, open 4H instead of 1H.

And 4D instead of 4NT is also clear cut, although if West calculates with a combined 32HCP,
you can make a case for 4NT in a scratch partnership.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[eagles123]

Recommending kickback then then stopping in 5 has to be the most ridiculous bit of ‘advice’ I’ve ever seen on this forum

[Cyberyeti]

eagles123, on 2022-October-22, 06:54, said:

Recommending kickback then then stopping in 5 has to be the most ridiculous bit of ‘advice’ I’ve ever seen on this forum

The point of the recommendation is that you're not snookered into bidding 6 with potentially 3 losers, you at least have an option with KB rather than blackwood.

I wouldn't do it but weak players do this all the time, missing an ace and not sure there aren't 2 losers in the suit (so they shouldn't have asked in the first place), they know very few people at their level bid thin slams and they sign off.

This is a routine 3♥ rebid, you have 7.5 playing tricks (and some defence), this is super maximum for one of our 3♥ rebids, second choice 4♥ rebid, distant 3rd 4♥ opener.

[mycroft]

You can't play kickback with a "not-regular" partner; at least not one that doesn't know when to blackwood.

I don't play kickback with anybody, because sure it can be bid to find the odd slam I have to just chicken-or-blast because the wrong answer is too high; but there are too many ways for it to go wrong and too many agreements we'd both have to remember, and be sure we both remembered, to avoid it going wrong. And one "going wrong" zero is going to take a long time to catch up with "kickback wins"... and 1♥-1♠; 3♥-4♠ is one of those "going wrong" auctions (and 1♥-1♠; 3♥-4♣; 4♦-4♠ is another).

But here Yeti's #4 says everything. Inappropriate Blackwood.

• Blackwood is a way to stay out of bad slams, not a way to get to good ones.
  
• Blackwood won't help you find out if you're off two tricks in a suit.

#1 is the "kickback and stop in 5" nonsense going on in the discussions. And yeah, the people who are convinced to play "all the gadgets" but don't know how to play even the simplest ones are the ones who kickback, find out they're off one, and then look at their clubs and go "what if it's the ♣A, and the K is out too?" and pass. And they're right often enough that they *will* keep doing it (and shhh, sometimes they'll think and stop in 5, and partner will raise to slam with the card(s) kickbacker was worried about. And sometimes the opponents won't understand what just happened either and let them get away with it).

But let's ignore all of those, whether they start with 4NT or 4♠. We're working with "good bridge" here.

#2 is the key failing here. Yes, now I'm going on to "all the gadgets" (or at least, all the metarules), but this one should be obvious. Your 3♥ says you're comfortable playing in hearts opposite minimal support, so "there are no new suits at the 4 level" applies. I appreciate the Yeti's concern that it might be 5-5, but I'll give up the 5♦ contracts where my 1-KJTxxx-4-2 hand makes it work to avoid 6♥ when partner has a couple, but KC won't help.

Now, just in general the 1M-1something-3M auctions are a major hole in standard systems; blame the 11-21 openers for that. There isn't enough space to show all the strengths you need to; there isn't enough space to show all the hands responder needs to after the 3M bid. All the solutions are flawed (including "find a way to not have 11-21 1M openers").

[blackshoe]

mycroft, on 2022-October-23, 16:18, said:

Now, just in general the 1M-1something-3M auctions are a major hole in standard systems; blame the 11-21 openers for that. There isn't enough space to show all the strengths you need to; there isn't enough space to show all the hands responder needs to after the 3M bid. All the solutions are flawed (including "find a way to not have 11-21 1M openers").

Heh. Simple solution to that: play Precision. Yeah, I know, Precision has its own problems. But it doesn't have this one. :-)

[Cyberyeti]

mycroft, on 2022-October-23, 16:18, said:

You can't play kickback with a "not-regular" partner; at least not one that doesn't know when to blackwood.

I don't play kickback with anybody, because sure it can be bid to find the odd slam I have to just chicken-or-blast because the wrong answer is too high; but there are too many ways for it to go wrong and too many agreements we'd both have to remember, and be sure we both remembered, to avoid it going wrong. And one "going wrong" zero is going to take a long time to catch up with "kickback wins"... and 1♥-1♠; 3♥-4♠ is one of those "going wrong" auctions (and 1♥-1♠; 3♥-4♣; 4♦-4♠ is another).

But here Yeti's #4 says everything. Inappropriate Blackwood.

• Blackwood is a way to stay out of bad slams, not a way to get to good ones.
  
• Blackwood won't help you find out if you're off two tricks in a suit.

#1 is the "kickback and stop in 5" nonsense going on in the discussions. And yeah, the people who are convinced to play "all the gadgets" but don't know how to play even the simplest ones are the ones who kickback, find out they're off one, and then look at their clubs and go "what if it's the ♣A, and the K is out too?" and pass. And they're right often enough that they *will* keep doing it (and shhh, sometimes they'll think and stop in 5, and partner will raise to slam with the card(s) kickbacker was worried about. And sometimes the opponents won't understand what just happened either and let them get away with it).

But let's ignore all of those, whether they start with 4NT or 4♠. We're working with "good bridge" here.

#2 is the key failing here. Yes, now I'm going on to "all the gadgets" (or at least, all the metarules), but this one should be obvious. Your 3♥ says you're comfortable playing in hearts opposite minimal support, so "there are no new suits at the 4 level" applies. I appreciate the Yeti's concern that it might be 5-5, but I'll give up the 5♦ contracts where my 1-KJTxxx-4-2 hand makes it work to avoid 6♥ when partner has a couple, but KC won't help.

Now, just in general the 1M-1something-3M auctions are a major hole in standard systems; blame the 11-21 openers for that. There isn't enough space to show all the strengths you need to; there isn't enough space to show all the hands responder needs to after the 3M bid. All the solutions are flawed (including "find a way to not have 11-21 1M openers").

Somebody basically gets this and understands how weak players think. I actually polled this on Bridgewinners http://bridgewinners...bid-or-natural/, and it appears most but by no means all people think 1♥-1♠-3♥-4♦ is a cue. Apparently there is no "standard" for this. I have my concerns 1633 vs 5053 is now going to find it difficult to get into diamonds without a 5N pick a slam and some real good guessing if the 2 suiter bids it.

[DavidKok]

The traditional requirement for the jump to 3♥ is not just "big hand, extra hearts" but "playable suit opposite a singleton" for this exact reason. There is not enough bidding space for responder to suggest a different strain, so you need 6♥ to be better than 6m sufficiently often that you'll just shrug when you miss a fit in a minor suit. There are some gadgets to recover (4m ambiguous with responder clarifying next round, 4♣ artificial, 3♠ relay, 5NT pick-a-slam, jumps to the 5-level as picture bids to name a few) but these are to be understood in the context of having agreed hearts as trumps and keeping open the option for a different strain, ostensibly looking for a double fit of sorts.
This is also why traditionally the "big hand, extra hearts" hands fake a jump bid to 3m (and similar hands but with long clubs/diamonds instead fake a reverse). That bid also shows a strong hand but is more ambiguous about strain, and the fact that we'll be a couple short on club length is recoverable if partner is alert and knows that bid can be shaded. Modern bidding theory has more gadgets (in standard Gazzilli is a good one) to slow down the bidding with strong hands, allowing you to differentiate both hand type and strength of both hands more easily at the cost of losing some partscores.

In short, putting effort into going exploring diamonds after the strong jump is in my opinion counterproductive. The jump already announced that hearts is most likely our best strain, regardless of whether we are playing modern gadgets or no. We are now in the slam zone, and should cooperate.

[bluenikki]

AL78, on 2022-October-22, 01:35, said:

I bid 3♥ (too much playing strength for 2♥) and it worked out badly as partner got too enthusiastic:

---

♣A led followed by a club to the king killed it immediately.

This was a scratch partnership so we haven't really got any feel for each other's bidding style.

3♥ did not suggest a ♣ control.

Replace the ♦ 4 with the king and you would have full value for your bid. And slam would still be silly.

By the way, your hand values to 19 in 1960 Goren: An independent suit adds one point for the fifth card and two more for each additional length.

[helene_t]

DavidKok, on 2022-October-22, 03:16, said:

4NT was a serious underbid but I'd just have passed it with your hand, being a minimum for your 3♥.

After the mandatory announcement that this should be quantitative, there's nothing more to say.

I wonder how you set hearts as trump if 4NT is quanti?

[nullve]

mycroft, on 2022-October-23, 16:18, said:

Your 3♥ says you're comfortable playing in hearts opposite minimal support, so "there are no new suits at the 4 level" applies.

DavidKok, on 2022-October-24, 03:36, said:

The traditional requirement for the jump to 3♥ is not just "big hand, extra hearts" but "playable suit opposite a singleton" for this exact reason.

Thought I should remind people what one-suited hands with 16 hcp and 6 hearts look like, since there tends to be no systemic rebid if not 3♥ on these hands in standard systems over 1♥-1♠. So here

Spoiler

West hands:



   1.                  2.                  3.                  4.               
4 3                 K J 2               5 4                 A 5 
A K Q 9 7 2         K Q T 8 4 2         A K Q J 8 2         A Q J 7 5 2 
K 7                 J                   A 3                 A 7 5 
A T 5               A Q 6               Q 7 3               J 5 

   5.                  6.                  7.                  8.               
9 8 5               K J                 K Q                 A 6 3 
A K T 8 6 5         A K J T 6 2         A 9 7 6 3 2         K Q T 6 5 3 
A Q                 A 4 2               T 6                 A 
K T                 8 5                 A K 4               K 9 6 

   9.                 10.                 11.                 12.               
Q 9                 K 2                 A K 2               7 6 
A K Q 7 5 4         K J 8 7 3 2         K Q J 9 5 2         A K T 9 8 7 
K Q 8               A T                 4 3                 A J T 
6 5                 K Q 4               K 6                 A 8 

  13.                 14.                 15.                 16.               
3                   A Q                 K T 7               9 4 
A K J 9 6 3         A K 8 7 5 4         A K Q T 5 3         A K Q 9 7 3 
K Q T               J T 3               A 4                 A K T 
Q J 9               Q 2                 3 2                 8 5 

  17.                 18.                 19.                 20.               
J 6                 8                   3                   K 9 
A K J 8 7 6         A K J 9 7 6         A Q 9 8 7 2         A K Q J 6 5 
K 5 4               Q J 7               A 5 2               Q 7 
K J                 K Q 9               A Q 4               J T 8 

  21.                 22.                 23.                 24.               
K 8 5               Q T                 K Q                 A 6 2 
A Q J T 9 4         A K Q J 7 3         K Q J 6 3 2         A J T 8 6 2 
K J                 K J 9               A 7 2               8 
Q 3                 6 5                 J 8                 A K 8 

  25.                 26.                 27.                 28.               
A Q J               Q 6                 2                   T 5 
Q T 9 8 7 5         A Q J 9 6 3         K Q J T 7 3         A K 9 7 5 2 
A K                 K 7                 A 4 3               A K 
6 5                 A 6 4               A Q 3               Q T 2 

  29.                 30.                 31.                 32.               
9 7                 A 8 5               J T 6               6 3 2 
A K 7 6 5 2         A J 8 7 3 2         A K J 8 5 2         A K J T 9 7 
A Q 3               A 6                 K 8                 K 7 
K 6                 K 3                 A 4                 A J 

  33.                 34.                 35.                 36.               
J 9 6               K 9                 A 9                 K 
A K J T 7 6         A Q J 9 8 2         A K T 8 4 3         A Q J 6 5 3 
K Q                 K 2                 K T 6               K 7 6 
Q 4                 K T 2               Q T                 K T 9 

  37.                 38.                 39.                 40.               
K 9 4               K 7 4               A 6 4               A K J 
K T 9 6 3 2         A K Q 9 6 4         K Q J 9 8 3         Q J T 8 7 3 
A K 7               6 2                 Q 8                 J 
K                   A 6                 A 3                 A 8 5 

  41.                 42.                 43.                 44.               
9 7                 A 9                 A Q 5               K 5 3 
A J 8 7 5 2         K Q 9 7 6 5         A K T 6 3 2         A J T 9 4 3 
A K 7               6 2                 4                   A 
A 4                 A K 7               K 9 8               A 9 4 

  45.                 46.                 47.                 48.               
5                   K T 4               Q 5                 K J 2 
A J 9 6 4 3         A Q T 9 8 6         A K J 7 4 2         Q J T 9 4 3 
A K 5               A 9                 A J 5               Q 
A 6 2               K 3                 J T                 A K 5 

  49.                 50.                 51.                 52.               
9 3                 K Q                 K 3                 K J 
A Q T 6 5 2         A K Q J 8 3         A K 8 6 4 3         A Q J 4 3 2 
A 5                 J 8 7               T 6                 K 9 6 
A Q 8               8 7                 A Q 3               Q 8 

  53.                 54.                 55.                 56.               
A J 8               A 9 4               K 9                 A J 8 
A T 9 7 5 4         Q J 8 7 4 3         J 8 6 5 3 2         K Q J T 9 8 
2                   A                   A K 7               5 
A K T               K Q 2               A J                 A J 7 

  57.                 58.                 59.                 60.               
A K 3               J 9 6               A K 2               K 8 
A K T 9 4 3         A K J 6 5 4         A 8 7 4 3 2         Q J 7 6 5 4 
5                   A K 4               Q 6 5               A 5 
Q T 5               3                   K                   A Q 6 

  61.                 62.                 63.                 64.               
A J 4               T 7                 Q                   T 3 
A K J 9 7 6         A K J 9 7 5         A K J 8 3 2         A Q 7 6 5 2 
9                   A J 4               A 9 4               A 8 
K 5 4               Q J                 Q 9 5               A Q 7 

  65.                 66.                 67.                 68.               
A T 5               T 5                 K J                 K J 
K J T 9 6 2         A K 8 7 4 3         K Q T 9 6 2         A K T 8 4 3 
A T                 K 5 2               K 9                 Q 8 7 
A 9                 A Q                 K J T               K T 

  69.                 70.                 71.                 72.               
A Q 4               Q                   Q 9 6               K 8 
K T 7 6 4 2         A K J 9 8 6         A Q J 5 4 2         A K T 9 8 5 
A K 7               K 7 5               T                   A 7 3 
T                   K 3 2               A K 8               Q 5 

  73.                 74.                 75.                 76.               
9 2                 K T 9               A 8 4               A Q 2 
A K T 8 3 2         A K J T 8 4         A K Q J 6 2         A Q T 7 6 2 
A K 7               K Q 2               8                   K 5 
Q T                 4                   Q 5 4               J 8 

  77.                 78.                 79.                 80.               
5                   A Q 5               K 4                 A T 
A Q J T 6 3         K T 8 7 5 2         K Q 9 8 7 5         Q 9 7 5 3 2 
A T 5               A 9                 Q J                 A 5 
A J 8               K 4                 A J 2               A Q 8 

  81.                 82.                 83.                 84.               
7 4 2               A Q                 K J 2               8 
A J T 9 5 3         K J 9 8 7 6         A K Q J 7 4         K J 9 5 4 3 
A K                 A T                 Q 8 6               A J 2 
A 5                 Q T 6               9                   A K 8 

  85.                 86.                 87.                 88.               
A 8                 Q 9                 A Q                 Q T 
A K J 9 7 3         K Q T 9 8 3         K Q T 6 5 4         K Q J 7 3 2 
J 4                 K 8                 Q T                 K Q J 
K 9 4               A Q 5               K 7 4               Q 6 

  89.                 90.                 91.                 92.               
A 6 3               Q 3                 A J T               Q 6 2 
K Q J 7 3 2         A K Q J 9 3         A Q T 5 3 2         K Q J 6 4 2 
K J                 9 5                 Q                   K J 
Q 9                 A T 5               K 4 3               A T 

  93.                 94.                 95.                 96.               
Q 4                 A K 4               A Q 9               A 9 8 
A T 8 6 5 4         A K T 9 7 3         A K T 7 6 5         A K Q 7 6 2 
A 3                 Q 3                 K                   8 
A Q 7               T 2                 8 6 3               K T 8 

  97.                 98.                 99.                100.               
A 9 2               A 6                 T 7                 Q J 6 
A K Q J 3 2         J T 9 8 7 2         A K Q 9 7 6         K Q J 9 4 3 
T 8 5               A Q J               8 2                 Q 5 
Q                   A T                 A K T               A J 

Generated 150506 hands
Produced 100 hands
Initial random seed 1666613567
Time needed    0.104 sec

are 100 randomly dealt hands using

hcp(west)==16 and hearts(west)==6 and shape(west, any 6322 + any 6331)
produce 100
action print(west)

.

[DavidKok]

As I said, the systemic bid on those with soft hearts is 3m (usually 3♣). Quite a few of those example hands would do well to rebid 2♥ (for example, 7, 10, 19, 41, 78, 98, though I have to admit I skipped through most of the hands). The (semi)balanced hands can also upgrade into 2NT with good spades.

helene_t, on 2022-October-24, 06:08, said:

I wonder how you set hearts as trump if 4NT is quanti?

A control bid of 4m shows slam interest with hearts as trumps. I've avoided 3♠ since it is ambiguous - spade control or long spades and no interest in hearts (I don't think there is a standard here)? Since partner's hearts are good it is very unlikely to find ourselves with a positive hand for hearts but lacking a minor suit control (something like ♠AKQJT ♥Qx ♦Qxx ♣Qxx?), and that hand does have a rebid problem and should probably fake 4♣. Notably, 4NT Blackwood doesn't solve anything that 4m doesn't - you are never interested in precisely partner's key cards while one or both minor suits are wide open.