[AL78]

MPs, playing 5CM, strong NT

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I was East. My thinking was when partner showed a diamond shortage, my KJ were likely waste paper, and any slam aspirations went out of the window so I signed off in game. Partner bid Blackwood and signed off in 5♥ when I showed one key card. This was a bottom as the other tables had bid the heart slam. She claimed I should have cue bid 4♣ so she knows which ace I have. I claim she could have cued 4♠ if she was still interested in slam and was interested in a specific ace, rather than going through Blackwood. Was my thinking flawed here?

[smerriman]

Bidding 4NT then signing off because you're missing an Ace is.. not even worth completing the sentence.

[eagles123]

I think you were a little pessimistic, think you should probably bid 4C, there's still reasonable potential with your hand and it does show the club control/lack of spade control. You are right about partner though, keycard is a very poor bid with no idea what to do with the answer. And if they have to be bidding keycard, finding out you're only missing one, then stopping in 5 ... just a big no no imo.

[Cyberyeti]

Also use 4♠ as kickback so you can ask for the Q♥ (which might be part of why partner signed off). I would have bid 4♣

[eagles123]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-April-14, 16:04, said:

Also use 4♠ as kickback so you can ask for the Q♥ (which might be part of why partner signed off). I would have bid 4♣

or just play 1430 rather than 3041.

[akwoo]

The 4N bid is beyond disgusting. Never bid 4N if it matters which ace partner has. 4S is obvious, and then you can bid 4N.

[LBengtsson]

I think the problem is not knowing the structure of responses to the 2NT bid and after. Partner bids 3♦ shortage, you bid 4♥. Both 2NT and the 4♥ bid have used up valuable bidding space, and whilst your ♦KJxx as you say are opposite a stiff and therefore probably not of value, jumping to 4♥ is making life difficult for partner.

I agree bidding 3♥ instead of 4♥ here shows interest in slam, but maybe it should be a 'relay' bid when partner has shown shortage in a minor with 3♣/3♦. What you want to know about is ♠ control: what partner wants to know about is your ♣A. Jacoby auctions are deciding about where you want to go after discovering the 9 card major fit. You have to know who is boss in auction also.

Does 3♣/3♦ show extra values after 2NT also? Or just shortage with either minimum or maximum hand? What have you agreed in your partnership? Can shortage show stiff ♦A? Here is similar hand with less which also fit good for slam.

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Partnerships should also understand that when a 9 card major fit has been found, the opener with ♥AKxxx now has odds in his favour on trump suit without knowing position of ♥Q. Either 2-2♥ split or 3-1♥ with ♥Q drop is 52% I think.

You have to agree what you and your partner play here. Your partner bidding 4NT here with maybe 2♣ losers is poor bid but auction before is ? Have you discussed this between yourselves? Having a bid like Jacoby 2NT on your convention card is good but not good if you have not discussed follow up bidding. This applies to any conventional bid that you use, not just Jacoby.

[mw64ahw]

Assuming a standard Jacoby 2NT the 3♦ bid identifies the singleton, but says nothing about strength so responder needs to show the 1st round control i.e. the A♣ and wait. Opener then counts 4KCs and can bid 4♠ to show the Ace and continued slam interest. This makes 6♥ by responder a better prospect holding Q♥ and A♣.

I use a modified Jacoby version which with opener's hand would start bidding 2nd round controls above 3♥ immediately showing both SI strength and a control. So in this case 3♠. 4♣ then shows a 2nd round control and a ♥ honour. A 3NT bid would deny a trump honour. Now knowing there are controls in all suits opener bids 5♥ to show an odd number of KCs with no additional Ks/void. Note in this case a rebid of 4NT as a proxy for ♠ would show a void rather than K♠. Responder can then bid the small slam.

[Douglas43]

If it's any consolation, I'd have done the same playing the stated methods. But I like LBengtsson's point about the possibility of playing 3H as neutral. With positive suitability (say Axx in Diamonds) you could cue bid.

[helene_t]

LBengtsson's advice is great, I don't have anything to add to it.


In general, don't worry about fault it was, but try to find out what wholes in your agreements you need to fill.

[nullve]

AL78, on 2022-April-14, 15:35, said:

I was East. My thinking was when partner showed a diamond shortage, my KJ were likely waste paper, and any slam aspirations went out of the window so I signed off in game.

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[TMorris]

For me control bids below game show no extras so I would always bid 4C here after the 3D bid.

[DavidKok]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-April-14, 16:04, said:

Also use 4♠ as kickback so you can ask for the Q♥ (which might be part of why partner signed off). I would have bid 4♣

eagles123, on 2022-April-14, 17:00, said:

or just play 1430 rather than 3041.

I think the problem is not at all what the keycard bid is, or which version of ace-asking or keycard-asking convention is being used, but rather a lack of understanding of slam bidding. No convention or tool is a sufficient substitute for that, I'm afraid.

[kgr]

Opener can bid 3♥ - showing 18-19 - instead of 3♦?
I think opener should not show singleton ♦Q with this strength.

[pescetom]

I am not very familiar with Jacoby 2NT developments, but it does strike me as odd to privilege showing opener's shortness with such a strong hand and to give no hint of the strength either. I agree that 3♥ should be more of a courtesy request than certain slam interest in any event.
In Italian style 2/1 bidding it would go something like:
1♥ - 2♣
3♣ - 3♥
3♠ - 4♣
4♦ - 5♣
6♥ - p

The 3♣ bid shows extras as well as real clubs and 3♥ sets trumps inviting indifferentiated control-bids. The 5♣ bid denies 2nd level spade control, shows an odd number of keycards and a second clubs control: now opener has to decide, but it's a fairly clear call given the probability that either spades or clubs are running (and partner almost certainly has the trumps queen having declined to bid 3NT non-serious).

[Lovera]

It needs to indicate the right value of the West hand (in opening at second range): after 1♥-2NT(=14/+ Jacoby unbalanced), 3♥(= unbalanced hand, 16+)-4♣(=cue), 4NT-5♣(=1-4), 5♦(=?Q)-6♦(=yes w/ K), 6♥ the slam can not get away.(Lovera)