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Too aggressive?

#1 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-October-19, 10:07

MPs



I decided to raise the pre-empt to put South under pressure if they had a decent hand. Sadly we got doubled and went one off for a bottom. One pair stopped in 2 and was allowed to make nine tricks, one South overcalled 2NT going two down. Only three and a half tables so the board was only played three times, and funnily enough, if I don't raise we get the best score possible but still get a bottom (bloody MPs), but would anyone else have considered raising on my hand?
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#2 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-October-19, 10:39

I think it was quite unlucky to get doubled on this hand and the raise is fine to me but a little borderline as I am not so concerned about a 2S contract. As it turns out, -100 should have been a good score.
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#3 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2021-October-19, 12:07

Hi,

I think pass instead of the raise is better, flat hand, defense against 2S / 4S and against 3NT.
Having said that, I think both the double and the conversion of the double
are quite brave (you could also replace brave with foolish), but both actions brought a MP top score,
so who wants to argue with that.

And dont get me wrong, I am not claiming, that I would have passed with your hand, ask me this on the table.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#4 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-October-19, 12:10

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2021-October-19, 12:07, said:

Hi,

I think pass instead of the raise is better, flat hand, defense against 2S / 4S and against 3NT.
Having said that, I think both the double and the conversion of the double
are quite brave (you could also replace brave with foolish), but both actions brought a MP top score,
so who wants to argue with that.

And dont get me wrong, I am not claiming, that I would have passed with your hand, ask me this on the table.

With kind regards
Marlowe


Yes I thought it was very borderline at the time but if I pass and LHO comes in with 3 I've got the same decision to make, and knowing my luck I'd be scoring -110 instead of -100.
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#5 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-October-19, 13:42

Once in a while, just for sanity's sake, can you post some examples of hands where you scored 100% for doing not much? It surely must happen a reasonable amount of the time, given how insane all of the other players seem to be..
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#6 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-October-19, 13:52

East/West bidding is sane and unlucky as winstomn says. North/south bidding is crazy and very lucky as cards lie.
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#7 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-October-19, 14:11

I'd have raised, although honestly passing is probably better. If you want you can claim game theory is afoot: by also raising on strongish hands with 3-card support is it not safe for the opponents to come in when you do have a weak raise, so you are protecting other boards at the potential cost of taking a slight anti-percentage action here. But I'm afraid this argument is primarily sophistry - my opponents tend to not punish me for my aggressive tendencies, no matter how clearly I try to invite them to.

South's double is horrid and North's pass equally so.
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#8 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-October-19, 16:06

View Postsmerriman, on 2021-October-19, 13:42, said:

Once in a while, just for sanity's sake, can you post some examples of hands where you scored 100% for doing not much? It surely must happen a reasonable amount of the time, given how insane all of the other players seem to be..


If I did that semi-regularly, it may look like me bragging (and I have nothing to brag about given my ability at this game). Since you requested, here's one:



I can't remember what happened after I opened 1 with the East cards in third seat, but North ended up in 4. Either it got passed round to North who overcalled 2, or South overcalled 2 then North bid hearts.

Easy defence, I cashed a couple of clubs and played a third round, ruffed in dummy. I later made the diamond ace and a heart, one down. Other two tables were in making partscores (one 2N, one 2S).


Here's another, only 87% because it was only played twice including us (we didn't play the last round of the Howell movement, so some boards only got played twice):



2 was alerted as Astro (hearts and another), but at the end of the auction, North explained it was DONT (before South had led). I called the director as I would have made a Stayman double if I'd have known that, and the director told me to call him back if we had been damaged (South was told to lead as though he had not heard the correction). As it happens I made ten tricks thanks to an endplay which North could have avoided by ducking the Q, but (very) occasionally I do manage to profit from an opponent's error.
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#9 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-October-19, 16:28

View Postsmerriman, on 2021-October-19, 13:42, said:

Once in a while, just for sanity's sake, can you post some examples of hands where you scored 100% for doing not much? It surely must happen a reasonable amount of the time, given how insane all of the other players seem to be..


The bidding at my club is very aggressive, and I am often the victim of actions that seem absurd to me but end up working or at least don't work badly for them. Problem is it is often very difficult to impossible to punish opponents for unsound bidding, either because neither partner or I can find a penalty double, or the cards lie very favourably and they get a top because it works and no-one else replicated it. Sometimes I can punish them but my perception is that getting duffed up is more frequent. This is one reason I have a defending frequency of 73% for the year to date (according to Pianola), and I am not really a passive bidder.
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#10 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2021-October-20, 10:42

In general, I've learned to underbid 4333 hands. That shape is a big turn off for me.
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#11 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2021-October-21, 14:58

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2021-October-19, 12:07, said:

Hi,
Having said that, I think both the double and the conversion of the double
are quite brave (you could also replace brave with foolish), but both actions brought a MP top score,
so who wants to argue with that.

LOL I do want to argue!
Double of 3H is takeout, doubling with the South hand shows a lack of basic bidding knowledge. Evidently NS play it as penalty (ok well I would be curious how they play double of 3H in other hands...), but that is a very inferior agreement.

Having said that, I would have passed 2H. 4333 with plenty of defense against spades and no heart honour does not scream for a premptive raise. You are also just about strong enough that there is a good chance it will be passed out.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#12 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-October-21, 15:57

View PostAL78, on 2021-October-19, 16:28, said:

The bidding at my club is very aggressive, and I am often the victim of actions that seem absurd to me but end up working or at least don't work badly for them. Problem is it is often very difficult to impossible to punish opponents for unsound bidding, either because neither partner or I can find a penalty double, or the cards lie very favourably and they get a top because it works and no-one else replicated it. Sometimes I can punish them but my perception is that getting duffed up is more frequent. This is one reason I have a defending frequency of 73% for the year to date (according to Pianola), and I am not really a passive bidder.

If you are defending 73% of the time, over a significant number of boards (say 400+) then either you or your partner, and probably both, are some combination of not bidding enough or not doubling enough.

I don’t track my numbers, but 20+ years ago I did go over some old private scores….maybe 10-12 sessions….and my partner and I declared roughly 54% of the hands…and I definitely was and am viewed by my peers as still being a conservative bidder. Now, we did then play 10-12 1N nv 1st and second, which got us into auctions quite often.

You don’t come across as bragging, but it does seem that your partners are extremely weak. Plus the field you are playing in seems just as weak. This happens…live in an area with few bridge players, and it’s unavoidable. You might want to try playing some online club games…run by larger clubs. I’m not sure how you’d find partners and, of course, playing online with someone you don’t know can be problematic. My suggestion, if you try this, is to find someone with whom you an talk by phone before and after the game…before to discuss methods, after (assuming you’re still on speaking terms, lol) to discuss results, especially if you hope/expect to play more with that partner.

You’re never going to get significantly better unless your partners have some shred of talent and are willing to put in the work

While there are, in my experience, a few ‘natural’ players, who find the game effortless, the majority of experts spent many, many hours learning the game, and none of them did that by themselves (although reading is very important)

As for the hand…I’d pass 2H for the reasons others have stated. Now, there’s more to be said for bumping if white v red, since South may be goaded by the vulnerability, but red, with a flat defensive hand passing seems pretty clear.

Here’s a tip for raising partner’s preemptive or semi-preemptive bids or overcalls (a vul 1st or 2nd seat weak two should, imo, be partially constructive as well as semi-preemptive)

Assume partner, for a 2-bid, has some 6331 or 6322 hand, with not much outside his suit. How many of his losers do you expect to cover?

Here, you cover two diamonds and probably half a spade on average. You have no possible ruffing value (sure, once in a while he’s 6=4, but that’s rare if only because 6=4 is far less common than 6322/6331)

So even opposite AKxxxx in hearts, you run a big risk of turning a plus into a minus. Meanwhile your defence is good and your spade length/strength is very important. When south has his turn to act over 2H p p, most players will look at their spades if considering a takeout double, since their partner will strain to bid a major. Thus,with your spades, there’s a good chance that south may be unable to do anything. In addition, you have reason to hope to beat 2S or 3m or 3N.

None of this analysis is a sure thing. There will be hands on which you pass, in similar circumstances, and score badly. That’s why competitive judgement is probably the most challenging part of the game.

Btw, N-S were insane
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#13 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-October-22, 03:49

View Postmikeh, on 2021-October-21, 15:57, said:

If you are defending 73% of the time, over a significant number of boards (say 400+) then either you or your partner, and probably both, are some combination of not bidding enough or not doubling enough.

I don’t track my numbers, but 20+ years ago I did go over some old private scores….maybe 10-12 sessions….and my partner and I declared roughly 54% of the hands…and I definitely was and am viewed by my peers as still being a conservative bidder. Now, we did then play 10-12 1N nv 1st and second, which got us into auctions quite often.

You don’t come across as bragging, but it does seem that your partners are extremely weak. Plus the field you are playing in seems just as weak. This happens…live in an area with few bridge players, and it’s unavoidable. You might want to try playing some online club games…run by larger clubs. I’m not sure how you’d find partners and, of course, playing online with someone you don’t know can be problematic. My suggestion, if you try this, is to find someone with whom you an talk by phone before and after the game…before to discuss methods, after (assuming you’re still on speaking terms, lol) to discuss results, especially if you hope/expect to play more with that partner.

You’re never going to get significantly better unless your partners have some shred of talent and are willing to put in the work

While there are, in my experience, a few ‘natural’ players, who find the game effortless, the majority of experts spent many, many hours learning the game, and none of them did that by themselves (although reading is very important)

As for the hand…I’d pass 2H for the reasons others have stated. Now, there’s more to be said for bumping if white v red, since South may be goaded by the vulnerability, but red, with a flat defensive hand passing seems pretty clear.

Here’s a tip for raising partner’s preemptive or semi-preemptive bids or overcalls (a vul 1st or 2nd seat weak two should, imo, be partially constructive as well as semi-preemptive)

Assume partner, for a 2-bid, has some 6331 or 6322 hand, with not much outside his suit. How many of his losers do you expect to cover?

Here, you cover two diamonds and probably half a spade on average. You have no possible ruffing value (sure, once in a while he’s 6=4, but that’s rare if only because 6=4 is far less common than 6322/6331)

So even opposite AKxxxx in hearts, you run a big risk of turning a plus into a minus. Meanwhile your defence is good and your spade length/strength is very important. When south has his turn to act over 2H p p, most players will look at their spades if considering a takeout double, since their partner will strain to bid a major. Thus,with your spades, there’s a good chance that south may be unable to do anything. In addition, you have reason to hope to beat 2S or 3m or 3N.

None of this analysis is a sure thing. There will be hands on which you pass, in similar circumstances, and score badly. That’s why competitive judgement is probably the most challenging part of the game.

Btw, N-S were insane


Thanks for another very solid response. My club has a fair few players (hundreds) and isn't very weak (although it has definitely got weaker over the years as the experienced players die off and are replaced with beginners), very mixed is more accurate. A mixed field does increase the luck factor as the result on a particular board can depend heavily on who you play it against. There are some players who are very aggressive in the bidding (or undisciplined lol), but play the dummy well, and people at my club are reluctant to double for one off, so they get decent results. Get a distributional competitive board against them and you are lucky if you get an average. They are like the Witchdoctor from the Reese/Bird series of books on the monks of St Titus.

It is maybe worth me looking back at some (or many) of my past sessions where I only declared 2-4 times in 24 boards and look at the hands where I defended to see if I was in a minority. It does seem some sessions that when I pick up a decent hand, partner holds rubbish, and vice versa, so one of us can get in the auction but not the other. If partner overcalls and I hold a flat 2 count with two small in support I am not finding a bid.

It might be a bit academic now anyway. The club committee has made the decision to scrap the one evening F2F session due to low numbers and replace it with an afternoon session (strangely they didn't scrap the online evening session which has had worse attendance for 2-3 years). I have a day job which means I cannot play at the club F2F until they reintroduce an evening session, and since I do not enjoy online bridge (esp after being in front of a computer all day at work), I will probably have to find another bridge club or give the game up. The fundamental issue is since the pandemic and being forced into online bridge, a large chunk of the regulars have decided they like sitting at home playing online and not having to come out in the poor UK weather and walk through a dark town centre at night (and half the membership still feel unsafe regarding COVID despite double jabs and boosters).
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