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Another what do you bid here

#1 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-August-28, 02:56

Sorry, there were (unusually) a lot of interesting hands yesterday evening.

Teams, 5CM strong NT, no-one vuln:

2S = weak


Your call?
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#2 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2021-August-28, 03:32

Can I bid 4NT for keycards? If so I'm tempted to just ask and bid slam or invite 7 with the right answer. If not, maybe 5S and see what happens. If I get lucky, partner gives me a chance to show the DA as well and that might inspire partner.

If slam is just down because they set up a spade and have the HA, hopefully my teammates give them the same problem.
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#3 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2021-August-28, 03:46

I would just bid 6H.
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#4 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-August-28, 04:24

View Postsfi, on 2021-August-28, 03:32, said:

Can I bid 4NT for keycards?


Yes, we play RCKB. The response will be 5 (i.e. two key cards no Q).
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#5 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2021-August-28, 07:05

I would just bid 6 as 4NT would not be key card for me (it would be two places or slam try). Partner may well raise if he has three key cards.
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#6 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-August-28, 07:27

Slam is by no means guaranteed when West is Minimum, but 5 looks safe so I bid 4NT - Kickbo showing 2 KCs and wait for a control response to show 2KCs (5NT would show 3 without the Queen, but may show Kings first)
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#7 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-August-28, 07:59

Keycard could land me in a grand trying to hunt down the club queen so instead I will bash 6H - it should have a good play if not cold and it might propel opps into a phantom 6S if not.
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#8 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-August-28, 13:09

AL78 'Sorry, there were (unusually) a lot of interesting hands yesterday evening. Teams, 5CM strong NT, no-one vuln:Your call?'
++++++++++++++++
I rank
1. 4N = RKC. If partner shows 2As, try 6. Opposite 3 key cards, a small slam isn't certain. Notwithstanding, IMO, you should still bid 5N to confirm possession of all the key-cards.
2. 6= NAT. Reasonable punt but unnecessary masterminding. Partner might hold
either
... Kx Kxxxxx Q Qxxx or
... xx AKxxx Qxxxx A
3. Double (Likely to result in a plus score).

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#9 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-August-28, 13:47

View Postnige1, on 2021-August-28, 13:09, said:

AL78 'Sorry, there were (unusually) a lot of interesting hands yesterday evening. Teams, 5CM strong NT, no-one vuln:Your call?'
++++++++++++++++
I rank
1. 4N = RKC. If partner shows 2As, try 6. Opposite 3 key cards, a small slam isn't certain. Notwithstanding, IMO, you should still bid 5N to confirm possession of all the key-cards.




Nige, could you explain 2As for me? I'm not sure what you mean by that. Thanks.
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#10 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-August-28, 13:52

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-August-28, 13:47, said:

Nige, could you explain 2As for me? I'm not sure what you mean by that. Thanks.


Two aces ?
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#11 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-August-28, 13:56

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-August-28, 07:59, said:

Keycard could land me in a grand trying to hunt down the club queen so instead I will bash 6H - it should have a good play if not cold and it might propel opps into a phantom 6S if not.


Could also land you in a close to ZP grand Qxx, AKxxx, Jx, AQx for example, but not KCing could lead you to a poor slam opposite say KQ, 10xxxxx, Qx, AQx.
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#12 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-August-28, 14:06

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-August-28, 13:52, said:

Two aces ?


Well, that's what I originally thought but as in keycard you can't differentiate aces from trump king I decided that could not be right.

My opinion - and it is only that, opinion - is that there is an over-reliance on Keycard to solve bidding problems. Here, Keycard can tell you some of what you would like to know but it can't tell you everything you need to know.

That is why I consider 6H not masterminding but a reasonable attempt to reach a decent contract while at the same time creating some doubt in opponents as to whether or not to sacrifice.

Of course, others' mileage may vary.
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#13 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-August-28, 14:39

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-August-28, 13:47, said:

Nige, could you explain 2As for me? I'm not sure what you mean by that. Thanks.
keycards :)
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#14 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-August-28, 14:46

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-August-28, 13:56, said:

Could also land you in a close to ZP grand Qxx, AKxxx, Jx, AQx for example, but not KCing could lead you to a poor slam opposite say KQ, 10xxxxx, Qx, AQx.

I suggest you take another look at the auction. The opps will not have reached 4S on an 8 card fit lacking the AQ of spades,nor likely a 9 card fit on a Jack high holding.

Partner rates to hold a stiff spade most of the time and a doubleton relatively infrequently(although often enough to cause concern, especially about finding clubs if partner is 2=5=2=4)
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#15 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-August-28, 15:23

View Postmikeh, on 2021-August-28, 14:46, said:

I suggest you take another look at the auction. The opps will not have reached 4S on an 8 card fit lacking the AQ of spades,nor likely a 9 card fit on a Jack high holding.

Partner rates to hold a stiff spade most of the time and a doubleton relatively infrequently(although often enough to cause concern, especially about finding clubs if partner is 2=5=2=4)


You don't play against me often enough then, NV this is entirely possible, 5 card WJOs are routine, 4 card are occasional.
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#16 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-August-28, 15:48

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-August-28, 15:23, said:

You don't play against me often enough then, NV this is entirely possible, 5 card WJOs are routine, 4 card are occasional.

I hope you disclose that.

I also hope that your partner is not foolish enough to jump to 4S with 3 card support for a 4-5 card suit.

Assuming you make (the mandatory) disclosure, Iíd love to play against you. I like collecting numbers, and opps who bid to 4S on say Xxx opposite KJxx are going to give up a lot of numbers against good players.

Of course, if your opps donít know how to double, or (far worse) your partnership does not disclose these habits, then Iím sure you do well.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#17 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-August-28, 16:18

View Postnige1, on 2021-August-28, 14:39, said:

keycards :)

Thank you.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#18 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-August-28, 16:40

I decided to look for slam the only way I could (without punting it) and bid RCKB. This is what happened:



Partner gave a mild OMG expression (this was RealBridge), and I hoped she was a bit better than that for bidding a new suit at the three level opposite what could have been a weak NT hand, but she played it in the only way she could see to make it. Won the opening lead, drew trumps, ran the 9 to the ace and that was the end for the defence. She had trump entries to hand to take the marked club finesse and the potential diamond loser went away on the last club (although that finesse also works as it happens). A nice, and somewhat fortunate 11 imps in.
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#19 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-August-29, 00:56

View Postmikeh, on 2021-August-28, 15:48, said:

I hope you disclose that.

I also hope that your partner is not foolish enough to jump to 4S with 3 card support for a 4-5 card suit.

Assuming you make (the mandatory) disclosure, Iíd love to play against you. I like collecting numbers, and opps who bid to 4S on say Xxx opposite KJxx are going to give up a lot of numbers against good players.

Of course, if your opps donít know how to double, or (far worse) your partnership does not disclose these habits, then Iím sure you do well.


All on the card alongside the 4 card weak 2s, we assume for bumping them up that they're 5 cards long (it's rarely 4), 4-4 is much more likely than 5-3.

Yes if the trumps aren't splitting we can get doubled, but do you really want to double 4 in this sort of auction on Qxx or Kxx and find your partner has 0-1 of them rather than the other holding.
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#20 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-August-29, 03:18

View Postmikeh, on 2021-August-28, 15:48, said:

I hope you disclose that.

I also hope that your partner is not foolish enough to jump to 4S with 3 card support for a 4-5 card suit.

Assuming you make (the mandatory) disclosure, Iíd love to play against you. I like collecting numbers, and opps who bid to 4S on say Xxx opposite KJxx are going to give up a lot of numbers against good players.

Of course, if your opps donít know how to double, or (far worse) your partnership does not disclose these habits, then Iím sure you do well.


The aggressive players at my club often get good results because many players are scared to double, especially the less experienced players up against who they see as the experts.

It can be difficult to judge correctly against a pair that pre-empt wildly, because if you call their bluff, you might find they have their bid and you pick up +100 or +300 when you have +420 your way. Even if they have jump overcalled on five and their partner raised them on 3, if you only have two or three small ones or to one honor, you can't be sure if they have a 10 card fit or an 8 card fit, where in the former you might have slam on, and in the latter even game doesn't make and you need to whack it.
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