BBO Discussion Forums: Here's a nice hand (bid it MY way) - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 4 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Here's a nice hand (bid it MY way)

#41 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,522
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2021-August-17, 02:44

View Postjillybean, on 2021-August-17, 02:02, said:

Yes, I agree it's a strange lead. 6/19 pairs bid and made 6NT, one pair made +1

2 3 1440 7.0 27.0 6 NT W 12 S9
7 13 1440 7.0 27.0 6 NT W 12 C2
8 15 1440 7.0 27.0 6 NT W 12 S6
13 6 1440 7.0 27.0 6 NT W 12 S6
14 8 1440 7.0 27.0 6 NT W 12 S6
16 12 1440 7.0 27.0 6 NT W 12 DT
2 18 1470 0.0 34.0 6 NT W 13 CJ


Well the final leader thoroughly deserved the overtrick they conceded, how did the leader of the club 2 get away with that ?

It's a horrible hand to lead from, the major suit leads obviously can blow tricks, the diamond lead is passive, depends on the auction what looks attractive. If there's been a heart shortage shown, that lead looks OK.

Our auction start would make a diamond lead look totally passive 1-2-2-3(I have a diamond suit I'm happy to play in a slam in opposite a small singleton), others might not be so clear.
0

#42 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,526
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2021-August-17, 07:19

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-August-16, 16:46, said:

Nope, cash 6 diamonds and 3 clubs finishing in the diamond hand and A then fixes N. A heart lead breaks this squeeze up, but not sure if there's another.


I found a lot of squeezes at the table, including some of the secondary ones, but a compound squeeze was outside my abilities to find and execute. Posted Image
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
0

#43 User is offline   Gilithin 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 359
  • Joined: 2014-November-13
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-August-17, 10:59

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-August-17, 07:19, said:

I found a lot of squeezes at the table, including some of the secondary ones, but a compound squeeze was outside my abilities to find and execute. Posted Image

This was rather the point I was making. While I would expect the majority of advanced players to find the textbook double squeeze, I think only real experts would find the right line at the table when North keep both black suits guarded. This is the sort of defensive inaccuracy that will not show up in DD analysis but is nonetheless important.
0

#44 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,522
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2021-August-17, 11:36

View PostGilithin, on 2021-August-17, 10:59, said:

This was rather the point I was making. While I would expect the majority of advanced players to find the textbook double squeeze, I think only real experts would find the right line at the table when North keep both black suits guarded. This is the sort of defensive inaccuracy that will not show up in DD analysis but is nonetheless important.


I think they might find it by accident, hope for N to be 5224 in which case it is a double squeeze which they can work out
0

#45 User is offline   gszes 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,600
  • Joined: 2011-February-12

Posted 2021-August-17, 21:36

late as usual BUT I did not see anyone question what a 1s bid (vs 2d) would have meant by you. What p does NOT BID is just as important as what partner bids in developing a dialog. For EX: (when using XYZ) I have used 1s to be natural and unlimited and I have also used it to show 4 spades and 6+ diamonds and less than invitational and I have never used it as FSF. Knowing what kind of hands I have eliminated when bypassing 1s helps me determine what p is bidding and why.

What would 1S have meant?
0

#46 User is offline   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,311
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Currently in New Zealand
  • Interests:Bridge, boogie boarding, hiking

Posted 2021-August-18, 01:16

1:1
1:1

4 spades, longer diamonds, I'd expect 6, not forcing.

Before we added XYZ, 1 1 1 2 was our 4sgf sequence.

& yes, what partner doesn't bid can reveal a lot about their hand.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
0

#47 User is offline   nullve 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,842
  • Joined: 2014-April-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norway
  • Interests:partscores

Posted 2021-August-18, 01:54

View Postjillybean, on 2021-August-16, 01:43, said:

No Walsh

View Postjillybean, on 2021-August-18, 01:16, said:

1:1
1:1

4 spades, longer diamonds, I'd expect 6, not forcing.

Opener: 13 hcp, 4423
Responder: 7 hcp, 4153

1-1*
1-?

* Or would you respond 1 as if playing Walsh?
0

#48 User is offline   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,311
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Currently in New Zealand
  • Interests:Bridge, boogie boarding, hiking

Posted 2021-August-18, 02:07

View Postnullve, on 2021-August-18, 01:54, said:

Opener: 13 hcp, 4423
Responder: 7 hcp, 4153

1-1*
1-?

* Or would you respond 1 as if playing Walsh?


I play a weak nt so opener would open 1nt and I'm passing with 7hcp 4153

If I were playing a strong nt, where are my values? I may bypass the diamonds and bid 1, or bid 1nt/1
I need to see the hand :)
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
0

#49 User is offline   nullve 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,842
  • Joined: 2014-April-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norway
  • Interests:partscores

Posted 2021-August-18, 02:20

View Postjillybean, on 2021-August-18, 02:07, said:

I play a weak nt so opener would open 1nt

Sorry, forgot.


0

#50 User is offline   Gilithin 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 359
  • Joined: 2014-November-13
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-August-18, 04:30

View Postnullve, on 2021-August-18, 02:20, said:

Sorry, forgot.



I would have assumed a 1 response with that unless playing an up-the-line system.
0

#51 User is offline   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,311
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Currently in New Zealand
  • Interests:Bridge, boogie boarding, hiking

Posted 2021-August-18, 14:25

View PostGilithin, on 2021-August-18, 04:30, said:

I would have assumed a 1 response with that unless playing an up-the-line system.

I don't want to highlight the spade suit, its crap, but I wouldn't be too upset if partner did chose to bid it.
However, holding the West hand I rebid 1NT,(15-17) not 1.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
0

#52 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,718
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2021-August-18, 15:18

View Postjillybean, on 2021-August-18, 01:16, said:

1:1
1:1

4 spades, longer diamonds, I'd expect 6, not forcing.

Before we added XYZ, 1 1 1 2 was our 4sgf sequence.

& yes, what partner doesn't bid can reveal a lot about their hand.

IC 1D 1H


If you bypass diamonds when holding a modest hand and a 4 card major, then you should consider playing that 1H shows an unbalanced hand.

If partner has the values to bid diamonds ahead of a major, then he can check back for, or just bid, a major over your 1N rebid. Indeed, the ability to rebid notrump as opener with ALL balanced hands is a huge part of why Walsh methods are successful. Concealing opener’s major holdings is worth half a trick or so on average, whether that be in 1N or 3N.

This in turn means that one should NOT play xyz after 1C 1D 1M

Opener is marked with shape and at least 4 clubs….if he rebid 1S, then at least 5, and if 1H, then 5 unless 4414.

This means that it is very useful to be able to play in 2C, which is impossible playing xyz.

Use FSF instead…my suggestion is to forget about using 1S and 2S as different forms of FSF: nobody, including highly ranked experts, has ever given me a persuasive reason for blowing up one’s gf auctions by jumping to 2S. I think someone once thought it was a good idea and few have ever looked at it seriously and asked Why? I use 1S as ambiguous about spades, but gf.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
2

#53 User is offline   Gilithin 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 359
  • Joined: 2014-November-13
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-August-18, 19:42

View Postjillybean, on 2021-August-18, 14:25, said:

I don't want to highlight the spade suit, its crap, but I wouldn't be too upset if partner did chose to bid it.
However, holding the West hand I rebid 1NT,(15-17) not 1.

This is precisely the point though. If West rebids 1NT with a balanced hand holding one or both 4 card majors then East needs to respond 1. If West bids 4 card suits up-the-line irrespective of shape, as in SEF, then East can afford to respond 1.

View Postmikeh, on 2021-August-18, 15:18, said:

my suggestion is to forget about using 1S and 2S as different forms of FSF: nobody, including highly ranked experts, has ever given me a persuasive reason for blowing up one’s gf auctions by jumping to 2S. I think someone once thought it was a good idea and few have ever looked at it seriously and asked Why? I use 1S as ambiguous about spades, but gf.

If playing an up-the-line system it does make sense to play 1 as natural and 2 as 4th Suit Forcing. With shape rebids, I am with you that nebulous just works out more efficient.
0

#54 User is offline   gszes 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,600
  • Joined: 2011-February-12

Posted 2021-August-21, 17:23

we still do not know a ton about opener's hand aside from the fact they do NOT have 4 spades (no 2s bid over 2d when it was still possible for responder to have 4 spades). I see no reason to eat up space when there is no clear evidence as to direction. I will bid 3d to keep the bidding as low as possible. Who knows? that might be enough for opener to take control (unlikely). As long as we are NOT playing with a robot (where a 3n bid with KQJ Jxxx x AJTxx is possible ickkkkkk). A couple of sensible bids should greatly clarify where and how high we are going.
0

#55 User is offline   Cascade 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Yellows
  • Posts: 6,745
  • Joined: 2003-July-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:Juggling, Unicycling

Posted 2021-August-22, 16:35

View Postjillybean, on 2021-August-16, 00:02, said:



MPs

You're playing xyz, 2 was artificial and game forcing.
What's your plan now?


I am going to raise clubs and then bid Blackwood (RKCB).
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#56 User is offline   Cascade 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Yellows
  • Posts: 6,745
  • Joined: 2003-July-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:Juggling, Unicycling

Posted 2021-August-22, 16:36

View Postmw64ahw, on 2021-August-16, 00:54, said:

I'm feeling impatient today so
4NT asking for Aces
6NT with 1 shown, 7NT with 2


I fear that 4NT might be a hand that is too good for 3NT and not Blackwood.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#57 User is offline   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,311
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Currently in New Zealand
  • Interests:Bridge, boogie boarding, hiking

Posted 2021-August-23, 08:06

View Postmikeh, on 2021-August-18, 15:18, said:

IC 1D 1H


If you bypass diamonds when holding a modest hand and a 4 card major, then you should consider playing that 1H shows an unbalanced hand.

If partner has the values to bid diamonds ahead of a major, then he can check back for, or just bid, a major over your 1N rebid. Indeed, the ability to rebid notrump as opener with ALL balanced hands is a huge part of why Walsh methods are successful. Concealing opener’s major holdings is worth half a trick or so on average, whether that be in 1N or 3N.

This in turn means that one should NOT play xyz after 1C 1D 1M

Opener is marked with shape and at least 4 clubs….if he rebid 1S, then at least 5, and if 1H, then 5 unless 4414.

This means that it is very useful to be able to play in 2C, which is impossible playing xyz.

Use FSF instead…my suggestion is to forget about using 1S and 2S as different forms of FSF: nobody, including highly ranked experts, has ever given me a persuasive reason for blowing up one’s gf auctions by jumping to 2S. I think someone once thought it was a good idea and few have ever looked at it seriously and asked Why? I use 1S as ambiguous about spades, but gf.


Thanks, this fixes the awkward 1C 1D XYZ auctions, and 1S 4sf is sensible and less steps to remember. Nobody ever tells players about these little problems and workarounds when adding a convention, many don't even fully explain the follow ups.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
0

#58 User is offline   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,311
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Currently in New Zealand
  • Interests:Bridge, boogie boarding, hiking

Posted 2021-August-23, 08:08

View PostCascade, on 2021-August-22, 16:35, said:

I am going to raise clubs and then bid Blackwood (RKCB).

I think you run out of room don't you?

1C:1D
1H:2D
3C:4C
?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
0

#59 User is online   DavidKok 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 769
  • Joined: 2020-March-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2021-August-23, 08:35

I think Cascade meant 4NT Blackwood. I hope it's safe opposite any response.

The followups and consequences of playing Walsh are long and complicated, but quite useful. I personally play something else over 1, but in a 'Walsh but otherwise natural' system I would agree that 1-1; 1 promises an unbalanced hand (especially if playing weak NT, where I like the idea of bidding 1 on a 3-card suit to get the strong hand into declaring NT) and that 1 is 4SF over that. Partner will 'raise' to 2 with the 4=4=1=4/4=4=0=5 hands so a potential spade fit is never lost.
0

#60 User is offline   gszes 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,600
  • Joined: 2011-February-12

Posted 2021-August-29, 12:02

[quote name='jillybean' timestamp='1629145077' post='1028206']

bid your way

1c nat
1d nat
1h nat (unclear if this promises distributional hand or not)
2d xyz
3c at least some club length with a problem in one or both majors for NT (if more balanced). DENIES 4 card spade suit or 5 card heart suit.
3d more temporizing than anything else. trying to get a clearer picture of opener's hand.
3h heart stop but a problem in spades for NT purposes. Still has not limited power.
3s I would normally treat this as looking for a partial stopper. It can also be used (with Axx for ex) to help rightside 3n if 5+m is a viable alternative to 3n.
4c no dia support (max surely 2 small) nothing useful in spades and minimal 5c available for extra values. Also no spade shortness (4s) (3 small not impossible and might make 4c the right bid even with some extra values).

I now have enough info to go to 4n key card for clubs 0314). It is technically possible for partner to have a hand like xxx AKQJ x JTxxx but this is a game of probability and I will buy the bridge gods lunch after they have a belly laugh at my expense for getting too high in 6c if p shows 1 key card. SO
4n RKC for clubs
5s 2 with club Q
7N is the best place to go and requires the least from partner. It might be possible that 7c or 7d is the best on a particular hand but that is just a guess while
any semblance of normal minor suit breaks should make 7n easy.
0

Share this topic:


  • 4 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users