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Rebid after 2NT Lebensohl or Ingberman 16-18 hands vs 19-21 without stopper in the unbid suit

#1 User is offline   paulsim 

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Posted 2021-April-28, 09:41

Hi,

How would you rebid if you are playing 2NT Lebensohl or 2NT Ingberman?
Are both hands candidates to 3C and wait? Or would you prefere a better scheme?

A.- 16-18 hand without stopper in the unbid suit

8 AKQ3 AKJ87 872
1 1
2 2N*
?

B.- 19-21 hand without stopper
8 AKQ3 AKQJ8 872
1 1
2 2N*
?


Ty very much
Kind Regards,

PaulS
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#2 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-April-28, 10:39

Case A., I would bid 3 to show a minimum reverse

Case B., I would bid 3 here.

But maybe our 2NT "moderatore" is different.
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#3 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-April-28, 12:16

As I play lebensohl, 3 shows a lower range reverse and a break shows more.
So for me, 3 on hand 1 and 3 on hand 2. But I don't claim much expertise in this.
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#4 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-April-28, 14:18

To me, one always rebids 3C unless one cannot stand playing there opposite a weak 4=2=1=6 or 4=1=2=6

Partner is not saying that hes passing 3C, but its possible. Meanwhile, any call he makes other than pass shows a weak hand...thus 3H is 5-7 hcp (a bad 7) with 4 hearts, 3D is same values, 3+ diamonds.

Break the relay based on shape, not strength. So 3D shows 4=6 reds (where often you prefer 3D to 3C, plus you want to tell him about your shape) and 3H shows 5=6.

Given that hes denied 5 spades, Id be reluctant to bid 3S over 2N without great spades and 3=4=5=1 shape, full values. Hes not passing 3C without 6 of them, and the 6-1 fit may well do better than the 4-3 spade fit.

Possession or lack of a stopper in the unbid suits is an irrelevancy.

The only time Id make an exception to the foregoing is if I opened 1D on at least a good 21 hcp. With say Q AKJx AKxxx AJx Id be tempted to bid 3N since Im bidding again over 3R by partner anyway and weve made partner declarer in notrump no matter what I do.
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#5 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-April-28, 14:18

To me, one always rebids 3C unless one cannot stand playing there opposite a weak 4=2=1=6 or 4=1=2=6

Partner is not saying that hes passing 3C, but its possible. Meanwhile, any call he makes other than pass shows a weak hand...thus 3H is 5-7 hcp (a bad 7) with 4 hearts, 3D is same values, 3+ diamonds.

Break the relay based on shape, not strength. So 3D shows 4=6 reds (where often you prefer 3D to 3C, plus you want to tell him about your shape) and 3H shows 5=6.

Given that hes denied 5 spades, Id be reluctant to bid 3S over 2N without great spades and 3=4=5=1 shape, full values. Hes not passing 3C without 6 of them, and the 6-1 fit may well do better than the 4-3 spade fit.

Possession or lack of a stopper in the unbid suits is an irrelevancy.

The only time Id make an exception to the foregoing is if I opened 1D on at least a good 21 hcp. With say Q AKJx AKxxx AJx Id be tempted to bid 3N since Im bidding again over 3R by partner anyway and weve made partner declarer in notrump no matter what I do.
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#6 User is offline   paulsim 

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Posted 2021-April-29, 01:51

Thank you very much for your replies.

One more concern:

If strenght is irrelevant and bid Leb/Ing style 3C, aren't you stucked with a 19-21 without club stopper?

A7 AQJ6 AKQ65 65 vs Q854 973 43 AJ7
1D 1S
2H 2N
?
Would you bid non forcing 3C?

How can responder know to bid 3N with stopper?

He IS 5-7, He doesn't know if opener is minimun 16-18 and stop in a safe parcial or strong 19+ and have to look for game.


Ty very much.
Kind Regars
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#7 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-April-29, 03:52

View Postpaulsim, on 2021-April-29, 01:51, said:

If strenght is irrelevant and bid Leb/Ing style 3C, aren't you stucked with a 19-21 without club stopper?

A7 AQJ6 AKQ65 65 vs Q854 973 43 AJ7
1D 1S
2H 2N
?
Would you bid non forcing 3C?

How can responder know to bid 3N with stopper?

He IS 5-7, He doesn't know if opener is minimun 16-18 and stop in a safe parcial or strong 19+ and have to look for game.

2N is GF opposite a MAX reverse ("19-21"), so Opener can only bid 3 (P/C) with a MIN reverse ("16-18").

On this pair of hands I believe the correct auction (given the 1 opening) is

1-1
2-2N
3N-P,

where 3N is mandatory with a MAX reverse and this shape.

A more practical approach could be to treat the opening hand as strong BAL and not open 1.
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#8 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-April-29, 05:12

View Postpaulsim, on 2021-April-29, 01:51, said:

Thank you very much for your replies.

One more concern:

If strenght is irrelevant and bid Leb/Ing style 3C, aren't you stucked with a 19-21 without club stopper?

A7 AQJ6 AKQ65 65 vs Q854 973 43 AJ7
1D 1S
2H 2N
?
Would you bid non forcing 3C?

How can responder know to bid 3N with stopper?

He IS 5-7, He doesn't know if opener is minimun 16-18 and stop in a safe parcial or strong 19+ and have to look for game.


Ty very much.
Kind Regars

With your example, Id open 2N. In fact that hand is so good Id almost (but wouldnt) upgrade to 2C then 2N.

With the example responding hand, Id bid 2N, in case partner breaks the relay, to show extra shape, and then bid 3N over 3C.

I strongly disagree with the notion of reversing with (almost any) 16 counts.if I reverse with 16, Ill have something like AQx AJxx KQ109x x, and would bid 3S over 2N.

Yes, my style will often reach thin games, but I am a strong believer in showing shape rather than relative strength for my reverses.

I was wondering, as I read the posts advocating breaking the relay based on strength, why I cant recall ever having a problem with my style. Obviously were talking about low frequency sequences, but Ive played quite a lot of bridge over the years.

I think its because Ill happily rebid 2N with many good 17-19 hcp 2=4=5=2 hands. Were never missing a 4=4 heart fit since responder cant hold 4 hearts unless he holds longer spades and he can/will show hearts over 2N (I recommend transfers here, but any method should work especially if you play a Meckwell response to 1m to show very weak 5=4 or 5=5M hands).

Ill open 2N with 19+-21 and 2C with super 21 counts.

With great 1=4=5=3 hands, say 20-21 with clubs stopped, Ill bid 3N over 2N.

Nothings perfect, but the idea of distorting shape over 2N leaves me cold.
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#9 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-April-29, 05:53

View Postmikeh, on 2021-April-29, 05:12, said:

I strongly disagree with the notion of reversing with (almost any) 16 counts.

But isn't that what most who say they play 2/1 actually do?

Btw, playing strong reverses, what would you rebid with

1) 8 AKQ3 AKJ87 872 over 1-1
2) 8 AKQ3 872 AKJ87 over 1-1

?

2 in both cases?
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#10 User is offline   paulsim 

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Posted 2021-April-29, 09:03

Maybe the hand was not the best.

I was asking ifwitj an orthodoxe reverse, 19+ (or 20+, enough for game over a minium responder)

Bid relay anytime 《19 vs 》19 with:

0 club
1+ clubs
2+ clubs
3+ clubs

When would you break the 3C relay?
Just because of shape or strenght?

3D used to be extra shape? 6th diamond, so with extra stregth is 3C non forcing or just bid 3N without stopper?

Wether this hand is:
3C non forcing
3D extra shape
3D extra strength
3D extra shape or extrenght
3N??


A8 AQJ7 AKJ876 4

Thanks all...interesting points of view..
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#11 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-May-02, 19:08

View Postpaulsim, on 2021-April-29, 09:03, said:

When would you break the 3C relay?


View Postmikeh, on 2021-April-28, 14:18, said:

one always rebids 3C unless one cannot stand playing there opposite a weak 4=2=1=6 or 4=1=2=6

If you have a hand so strong that you want to force to game, you cannot stand playing in 3 and therefore need to bid something else. This principle is sometimes called ParadoX.
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