Problem of bidding Bidding
#1
Posted 2020-April-17, 06:08
South : ♠KQJ8 ♥ 3 ♦ AKQJ1083 ♣ 9
North : ♠ 95 ♥ KJ1064 ♦ 62 ♣ 7653
Aunction opps quiet
1♦ 1♥
1♠ 2♥
3♣ all pass
It was a desaster. 3♣ was a way to find a stopper. I thought it was forcing.
What went wrong ?
Ty vm
#2
Posted 2020-April-17, 06:19
#3
Posted 2020-April-17, 08:34
Cyberyeti, on 2020-April-17, 06:19, said:
I thought 3♣ was forcing ( 4th suit or stopper asking ) but partner pass
I dont understand an effective 0 count is passing a technically forcing bid ( Excuse my english not too good )
Thank you for ur interest.
#4
Posted 2020-April-17, 08:39
120248, on 2020-April-17, 08:34, said:
His "good" heart suit seems to be opposite your shortness, so the only 4 points he has are totally wasted. Since he had a sub-minimum for his previous bidding he decided to minimize the losses by passing, even though your bid is forcing.
He assumed your bids were all natural, so he thought a fit had been found.
#7
Posted 2020-April-17, 09:55
120248, on 2020-April-17, 06:08, said:
- Responder could arguably pass 1d.
- A 2d preference or 1nt might be better, having chosen to respond.
- In standard bidding, 4th suit by *responder* is an artificial force (at least 1 round, to game for most these days). 4th suit by *opener*, without special agreements, is *NOT*. Opener, to create a force, has to jump shift (here 1D-1H-2S), to create a GF auction (jump shift means ~19+ playing strength, responder not expected to pass below game. But some by agreement might let responder pass a technically forcing call if their initial call was a tactical stretch, less than the normal 6 or so HCP expected. If they think they will in the long run score better by passing than by respecting the force). Or make a reverse bid (e.g. 1D-1S-2H), but there are no reverse bids on this auction start of 1d-1h. A reverse normally isn't GF, just F1 and promising a 3rd bid, but again by agreement opener sometimes has forcing calls on the 3rd round of the auction also (I play 1d-1s-2h-2nt!-3c! 4th suit by opener as GF in my partnerships). But this isn't standard, there is considerable variation in reverse structure and has to be discussed between partners.
#9
Posted 2020-April-18, 01:37
After 1♦ north should pass.
If you only look at the bidding and north hand is not known 3♦ is 100 % forcing being the fourth suit in most systems.
#10
Posted 2020-April-18, 02:18
#11
Posted 2020-April-18, 02:59
However, bidding 3♦instead seems most likely to get to a making game. Here it seems that would be the final contract unless you play it forcing to game.
Got to have some agreements with partner.
#13
Posted 2020-April-18, 08:40
Stephen Tu, on 2020-April-17, 09:55, said:
This may be a regional thing. I have seen it stated before on this site that only responder has a 4th suit forcing bid available. I think that in the UK, most would treat a bid of the 4th suit by responder or opener as artificial and forcing (for one round only is usual here). I checked a book on my shelf at random (Klinger) and it certainly mentions 4SF by both responder and declarer.
The distinction may not be all that great, as I would expect a 4153 (or similar) distribution for this sequence. But I don't think the 3C bid "promises" diamond length. Yes, I would have jumped to 2S with declarer's hand and yes, I would have got too high.
#14
Posted 2020-April-18, 08:55
Tramticket, on 2020-April-18, 08:40, said:
The distinction may not be all that great, as I would expect a 4153 (or similar) distribution for this sequence. But I don't think the 3C bid "promises" diamond length. Yes, I would have jumped to 2S with declarer's hand and yes, I would have got too high.
Our agreement is that if it can be natural it is, if not it's 4th suit so 1♥-1♠-2♣-2♠-3♦ is natural, but bidding the minors the other way round is 4th suit.
#15
Posted 2020-April-18, 10:42
Cyberyeti, on 2020-April-18, 08:55, said:
When the 4th suit is the 4th bid in the auction, it is artificial, saying nothing about the named suit. That is possible only by responder.
Bidding the 4th suit later in the auction is not artificial. It says something about the suit named. Just what it says about the suit is a partnership matter. You should not spring it on your partner without discussion.
My own feeling about the auction 1♦ - 1♥ ; 1♠ - 2♥ ; ? is that 3♣ cannot be a minimum 4=0=5=4. With that holding, you pass 2♥ ; partner promised 6+, after all. So if you want it to show 4+ ♣ , then it is 15-18. It doesn't matter whether you call it forcing or not. As T. Lightner wrote often, a player who has opened one of a suit has no "absolute force" in later rounds: as far as he was concerned, partner promised nothing by responding. So the closest opener has to a force is "if you had your bid, we have a game."
#16
Posted 2020-April-18, 11:03
bluenikki, on 2020-April-18, 10:42, said:
Bidding the 4th suit later in the auction is not artificial. It says something about the suit named. Just what it says about the suit is a partnership matter. You should not spring it on your partner without discussion.
My own feeling about the auction 1♦ - 1♥ ; 1♠ - 2♥ ; ? is that 3♣ cannot be a minimum 4=0=5=4. With that holding, you pass 2♥ ; partner promised 6+, after all. So if you want it to show 4+ ♣ , then it is 15-18. It doesn't matter whether you call it forcing or not. As T. Lightner wrote often, a player who has opened one of a suit has no "absolute force" in later rounds: as far as he was concerned, partner promised nothing by responding. So the closest opener has to a force is "if you had your bid, we have a game."
Depends what 2♥ shows, for many 3♣ would show more than 15, also some play 2♥ as pretty constructive. There are lots of system considerations here (whether WJS are being played for a start).
#17
Posted 2020-April-18, 14:06
120248, on 2020-April-17, 06:08, said:
South : ♠KQJ8 ♥ 3 ♦ AKQJ1083 ♣ 9
North : ♠ 95 ♥ KJ1064 ♦ 62 ♣ 7653
Aunction opps quiet
1♦ 1♥
1♠ 2♥
3♣ all pass
It was a desaster. 3♣ was a way to find a stopper. I thought it was forcing.
What went wrong ?
Ty vm
I would love to know how an expert bidding panel or a top pair would approach this hand. The results could prove interesting (!)
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster
Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)
"Any palooka can take tricks with Aces and Kings; the true expert shows his prowess
by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
#18
Posted 2020-April-18, 14:44
PhilG007, on 2020-April-18, 14:06, said:
No pretence to expert level, but it doesn't seem to be rocket science to avoid disaster.
North can see his black cards and count to 4.
If a 1♦ opening promises 5-card (as is increasingly common) or at least a decent 4-card then it seems reasonable to risk a weak 2♥ even with this 5-card which will elict a sustainable 3♦.
Otherwise pass.
#19
Posted 2020-April-18, 15:36
pescetom, on 2020-April-18, 14:44, said:
North can see his black cards and count to 4.
If a 1♦ opening promises 5-card (as is increasingly common) or at least a decent 4-card then it seems reasonable to risk a weak 2♥ even with this 5-card which will elict a sustainable 3♦.
Otherwise pass.
Indeed When North rebids his hearts the singleton heart in South's hand should ring alarm bells that
the hands are a misfit. He should resist the temptation of the picture gallery in the diamond suit and pass.
Misfits should be played at as low as level as possible before the bidding escalates from the dangerous
to the diabolical .
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster
Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)
"Any palooka can take tricks with Aces and Kings; the true expert shows his prowess
by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog