[awm]

Some questions about the unobstructed auction 1NT-2♣-2♦-2♥. I'm assuming most people play this as weak with both majors (but the poll includes answers if you don't). I'm curious about what sort of major suit length is promised.

[pescetom]

If you are still in time I would consider adding more options to the first poll - some might want 10 cards or whatever.

[Tramticket]

I suspect that responses might vary, depending on the strength of the NT range.

For us, the sequence 1NT, 2♣; 2♦, 2M promises a five-card suit and 4+ in the other major.

If we are 4-4 in the majors:
- with 44(32) we choose to play in 1NT. Seven tricks might easily be easier than eight with two balanced hands. Yes, we might be missing a 4-4 major fit, but this is is an area where the strength of the NT opening might have an impact on choice of system. We play a weak NT and our Garbage Stayman sequences are primarily aimed at avoiding a costly double. If you play a strong NT, there is a greater chance that the points are evenly divided and you want to use the sequence in a more constructive attempt the reach your best Match Point score.
- with 4441 or 4450 we use Stayman and pass any response. Yes a major might sometimes score higher than a diamond contract at MPs, but with a weak hand opposite a weak NT, we are looking for the most playable spot.
- The 4414 and 4405 shapes are the most problematic. We will generally pass and use our methods for escaping from 1NT doubled if necessary. Very rarely I have used Stayman with this shape with a complete bust - hoping to get to a playable spot before the doubling starts!

[Cyberyeti]

awm, on 2019-October-23, 01:14, said:

Some questions about the unobstructed auction 1NT-2♣-2♦-2♥. I'm assuming most people play this as weak with both majors (but the poll includes answers if you don't). I'm curious about what sort of major suit length is promised.

Weak NT context, we play it as ostensibly 4-5 but we do have the arrangement that if partner is 3-2 he always bids 2♠ so if we feel like doing it with 4-4 at MPs we can, and have had some good scores from doing so.

[Zelandakh]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-October-23, 02:34, said:

Weak NT context, we play it as ostensibly 4-5 but we do have the arrangement that if partner is 3-2 he always bids 2♠ so if we feel like doing it with 4-4 at MPs we can, and have had some good scores from doing so.

The other, possibly bigger, advantage of playing this way is that you can also bid 2♥ with 4♥ and longer clubs. Most players these days forget that that hand type was part of the original Crawling Stayman concept but it still has its uses provided you use CY's rule for the majors.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2019-October-23, 02:58, said:

The other, possibly bigger, advantage of playing this way is that you can also bid 2♥ with 4♥ and longer clubs. Most players these days forget that that hand type was part of the original Crawling Stayman concept but it still has its uses provided you use CY's rule for the majors.

We don't have this issue quite so much, we play 1N-2♣-any-3♣ as to play, something you probably don't do if you play a strong NT

[Vampyr]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-October-23, 03:37, said:

We don't have this issue quite so much, we play 1N-2♣-any-3♣ as to play, something you probably don't do if you play a strong NT

Why do you do that instead of simply transferring to clubs?

[wank]

this mainly depends how you play 1nt-2c-2r-2s. i play it as invitational so 2h can be any hand with both majors.

[Cyberyeti]

Vampyr, on 2019-October-23, 04:44, said:

Why do you do that instead of simply transferring to clubs?

Because if I'm 1435 I will play 2♥ if partner has 4 and 3♣ if he hasn't

[Tramticket]

wank, on 2019-October-23, 05:08, said:

this mainly depends how you play 1nt-2c-2r-2s. i play it as invitational so 2h can be any hand with both majors.

We play 1NT, 2♣; 2♥, 2♠ as invitational - as a consequence of our four-suit transfers and all invitational hands going through Stayman.

But after 1NT, 2♣; 2♦ we simply bid 2NT to invite. What is the advantage of playing 2♠ as invitational in this auction?

[antonylee]

Tramticket, on 2019-October-23, 06:05, said:

We play 1NT, 2♣; 2♥, 2♠ as invitational - as a consequence of our four-suit transfers and all invitational hands going through Stayman.

But after 1NT, 2♣; 2♦ we simply bid 2NT to invite. What is the advantage of playing 2♠ as invitational in this auction?

I play that all 5♠ invites go through 2♣..2♠ (then 2N asks for shortness, if any). The advantage is to free up 1N-2♥; 2♠-2N! for some other purpose -- in my case (modified from some gadgets common in France), it shows 5♠(4m31)'s; meanwhile 1N-2♥; 2♠-3m guarantees 5♠5m.

To go back to the original question I play 1N(strong)-2♣; 2♦-2♥ as 5♥4♠ invite because I need 1N-2♦; 2♥-2♠! for invitational hands (and some GFs), as 1N-2♦; 2♥-2N! is likewise covering 5♥(4m31)s.

[Zelandakh]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-October-23, 05:24, said:

Because if I'm 1435 I will play 2♥ if partner has 4 and 3♣ if he hasn't

Of course if you covered that hand through your Crawling Stayman you would gain the sequence 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 3♣ for some other purpose. How useful that is probably depends on how your structure over 1NT - 2♣; 2♠ works. No spare capacity there means no ability to add extra hand types so that the best you can do would be to make some minor sequences slightly more efficient. Believe it or not, we actually had a discussion on this very auction over 5 years ago when discussing some options for it in a Liversidge thread.

[pescetom]

Tramticket, on 2019-October-23, 06:05, said:

We play 1NT, 2♣; 2♥, 2♠ as invitational - as a consequence of our four-suit transfers and all invitational hands going through Stayman.

I don't think even that is automatic - in the partnership where we play a "normal" 4-card Stayman, this 2♠ is forcing to 2NT/3♠. That way you can still use it with invitational hands but also with slam hands (with game-going strength responder would have bid 3NT which still promises 4-card ♠). Of course our 1NT is strong which probably gives us more liberty in these matters.

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-October-23, 02:34, said:

Weak NT context, we play it as ostensibly 4-5 but we do have the arrangement that if partner is 3-2 he always bids 2♠ so if we feel like doing it with 4-4 at MPs we can, and have had some good scores from doing so.

In the partnership where we play a "normal" Stayman with crawling 2♥ we have the same rule about opener correcting to spades only with 3♠-2♥. That's the only rule we have, so judgement about any given combination of majors is up to responder bearing in mind this rule.

[pescetom]

In other partnerships we play a puppet-like Stayman that guarantees a 2♦ reply except when opener holds a 5-card major. This rules out both crawling and 3-way garbage but offers a fairly safe takeout to 2♦ instead, especially if the garbage hand has some tolerance for majors. On the whole I prefer this to the normal situation, as crawling is very infrequent and 3-way garbage with a 4-card Stayman always seem to end up in the least desired of the three suits, which makes for stress at the table even if the risk was justified in probability terms.

[helene_t]

Zelandakh, on 2019-October-23, 02:58, said:

The other, possibly bigger, advantage of playing this way is that you can also bid 2♥ with 4♥ and longer clubs. Most players these days forget that that hand type was part of the original Crawling Stayman concept but it still has its uses provided you use CY's rule for the majors.

Do youo play
1NT-2♣
2♠-3♣
as weak?
Otherwise you can only do it with 3415 specifically.

I don't like the agreement that either could be longer. A modern 1NT opening can be 2-2 in the majors. I saw Zia and a p on Vugraph playing 2♥ in a 4-2 fit when they also had a 5-2 fit in spades. I would just have transfered to spades.

[Zelandakh]

helene_t, on 2019-October-23, 14:57, said:

Do youo play
1NT-2♣
2♠-3♣
as weak?
Otherwise you can only do it with 3415 specifically.

My structure of choice switched to a Puppet scheme many years back meaning that I need 2♥ over 2♦ constructively. WHen I was playing ordinary Stayman though 1NT - 2♣; 2♠ - 3♣ showed diamonds. As you point out, this greatly restricts the usage of the 4♥ + longer minor hand in Crawling Stayman.

helene_t, on 2019-October-23, 14:57, said:

I don't like the agreement that either could be longer. A modern 1NT opening can be 2-2 in the majors. I saw Zia and a p on Vugraph playing 2♥ in a 4-2 fit when they also had a 5-2 fit in spades. I would just have transfered to spades.

Agree absolutely. When I first learned about Crawling Stayman I did not think it would be a big deal to include both 5-4 and 4-5 hands but over time it became clear that removing hands with one specific major longer than the other just makes for more accurate bidding. My solution ended up similar to CY's, with Opener bidding 2♠ over 2♥ with 2♥3+♠ and passing with 3+ hearts. Strangely the system file I still have from that time does not mention what to do with a 2=2=4=5, so I assume I was still opening that hand with 1♣ at the time. I guess the scenario is rare enough not to worry about it too much.

[wank]

Tramticket, on 2019-October-23, 06:05, said:

But after 1NT, 2♣; 2♦ we simply bid 2NT to invite. What is the advantage of playing 2♠ as invitational in this auction?

invitational with 5 i mean. the advantage is 1) you can play 2s instead of 2nt or 3s when opener is rejecting the invitation 2) you can invite lightly because with a max and no fit, opener can try 2NT 3) 1nt-2h-2s-2nt is now available for something else. popular options include artificial GF (allowing direct bids to be for example 5-5 invites), transfer to clubs, etc.

i play responder's 2nd bid as a transfer. 2NT=clubs, 3C=diamonds, 3D = 6M, invitational to game/slam (direct splinters to 4m/4H = void), 3H = 55 (inv if xfer to S, GF if xfer to H), 3S = c.o.g. M>NT, 3NT = c.o.g. NT>M

[Tramticket]

wank, on 2019-October-23, 21:38, said:

invitational with 5 i mean. the advantage is 1) you can play 2s instead of 2nt or 3s when opener is rejecting the invitation 2) you can invite lightly because with a max and no fit, opener can try 2NT 3) 1nt-2h-2s-2nt is now available for something else. popular options include artificial GF (allowing direct bids to be for example 5-5 invites), transfer to clubs, etc.

i play responder's 2nd bid as a transfer. 2NT=clubs, 3C=diamonds, 3D = 6M, invitational to game/slam (direct splinters to 4m/4H = void), 3H = 55 (inv if xfer to S, GF if xfer to H), 3S = c.o.g. M>NT, 3NT = c.o.g. NT>M

Thank you.

[Zelandakh]

Tramticket, on 2019-October-23, 06:05, said:

But after 1NT, 2♣; 2♦ we simply bid 2NT to invite. What is the advantage of playing 2♠ as invitational in this auction?

One major advantage is consistency. A structure of

1NT - 2♠ = invite to 3NT with no major suit interest; or some other hands
1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠ = semi-bal invite with 5 hearts and no interest in spades; or some other hands
1NT - 2♣; 2♥ - 2♠ = invite to 3NT with no interest in spades; or some other hands
1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2♠ = invite to 3NT with no 5 card major; or some other hands

combined with

1NT - 2NT = transfer to clubs
1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2NT = invite with 5♥4♠
1NT - 2♣; 2♥ - 2NT = transfer to clubs
1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2NT = invite with 5♠4♥

creates an efficient base that remains internally consistent, thus allowing a relatively complex method to avoid a large memory overhead. If some sequences use transfers and others not, the method is imho more difficult to remember than one that has more artificiality but more consistency.