[perko90]

Dlr: N
Vul: E-W
Scoring: MP

North:
♠KJTx
♥xxx
♦KJ
♣Txxx

South:
♠9xxx
♥Q
♦Txxxx
♣Qxx

Bidding:
P-P-P-1♥;
1♠-2♥-2♠-4♥;
P-P-4♠-X;
All Pass

Result: -800 MPs: 20%; E-W need to find both ♥Q and ♣Q and 4-3 club split to make 7, but most pairs stopped at 4♥.

My ptr didn't like my 4-card overcall. I thought he had a text book 3♠ preemptive raise. Or, given the situation, even a direct 4♠ bid at fav with opps showing 25+ HCPs and an 8+ card heart fit.
Help us reach a verdict!

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

the 1S overcall is a "can do, you dont have to", 4S is just ...
What did South learn, that he did not know, at the time he bid 4S?
Given his strength, and given that partner is a passed hand, he did
know, that they will have the strength to bid game.
He decided to go with 2S, instead of 3S, fine, and saw, that partner
was not interested. Sometimes they make a vul. game.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

South obviously needs to bid 3♠ first time, but eventually he needs to make a decision whether to save or not. Maybe he should have thought that he is weak enough that opps might have missed slam, but it is always easy to be clever when one sees both hands.

Both partners were a bit overheated due the the vulnerability. A good opportunity to discuss partnership style. If we overcall on 4-card suits, we shouldn't raise them to the 4-level with 4-card support. Maybe.

I think 4-card overcalls by a passed hand should be rare since there's also 1NT available to show 4M5m. But with this North hand, 1♠ is reasonable.

So maybe it's ok that South doesn't cater to a 4-card suit. Just bad luck, then.

[mikeh]

One reason to be cautious in making an overcall on minimal values is our holding in the suit opened on our right, especially if a major. xxx is a death holding. Now, make one of the clubs into a spade, and the spade texture, in a 5card suit, makes 1S just fine. However, I’d pass the actual hand and think it clear to do so.

South: I could live with 2S, although the hand is clearly worth a weak jump raise, if in use. Bidding over 4H is very poor....far too dangerous. If one is going to save against their game, do so at one’s first chance. Never let them bid game and then bid again to save. As it happens, with partner having no more than 5S, and we having no working hcp, it wouldn’t occur to me to bid 4S initially, but the notion of bidding twice with South’s hand is very strange.

S had to know that opener had a big hand and would be driving to at least a game. By bidding 2S, he allowed opener to create a forcing auction. Opener chose not to do so, but the point remains valid. Had opener bid, say, 3S and then S bids 4S, opener can pass (forcing) or double....opener has what’s known as a fielder’s choice. A basic principle of sacrifice bidding is to bid the limit of the hand as soon as possible.

I hate the 1S. I think it a bid made by someone who likes to bid without thinking about why he is bidding, but it pales in comparison to South’s actions. 2S was not good, 4S was far too dangerous


I edited the above because my first post was over the top in the language I employed.

[TylerE]

I'd say this is a "N-S deserve each other hand". 1♠ and 4♠ are both insane. I have no problem with 4 card overcalls but that is SO not the kind of hand to do it on.

[Tramticket]

South's judgement was poor.

I almost never over-call on a four-card suit and this balanced eight-count is not the hand to do it on. Yes it is always nice to bid a spade suit wherever possible, but this over-call does not deny the opps any bidding space (it gives them an extra bid - double) and you might not want partner to lead to your broken four-card suit rather than choose their longer suit. But I mainly dislike the bid because the hand has little playing strength, but quite a bit of potential in defence.

[eagles123]

I'm not a huge fan of the overcall, but 2S then 4S is a total nonsense

[ggwhiz]

We make 4-card suit overcalls often but with a reason. After both partners have passed it would be mostly lead directing and north is a heavy favorite to be on lead.

Bidding 2♠ instead of 3 might cause e/w to park it in 3♥ missing a cold game. Very rarely works and when it hasn't bidding 4♠ is insane. Pushing e/w into a making slam would be a just result.

So yes, n and s deserve each other.

[rmnka447]

I agree with the sentiment that both partners deserve each other on this hand.

I'd never overcall 1 ♠ with the North hand. South's 4 ♠ bid is insane.

Should you even raise with the South hand? The hand is worth about 5 points at most including the 3 for distribution. ♥ Q is probably worth zero. Sometimes raising with a very weak hand helps the opponents to find games than by exposing the fit. The problem is that with such few points the opponents will have more and be close to game going if partner has normal overcall values.

If you decide to raise on those values, then I see no problem with either 2 ♠ or 3 ♠. Bidding 3 ♠ may be the LOTT bid, but showing 4 ♠ may solve a bidding issue of whether to raise to game for an opponent holding ♠ xxx. Now that opponent will be able to surmise by bridge logic that partner is likely to have a stiff. It seems lately that the 3 level preemptive raises have turned into transfers to game for the opponents a lot more.

The 4 ♠ bid is other worldly. If you push to 4 ♠, you want to either have a chance of making, push the opponents a level higher where you might set them, or have a chance of keeping a set to less than the value of the opponent's game. But the South hand has about 0 % chance of achieving any of those goals with such poor values. Sometimes you just have to concede that the hand is the opponents and live to fight another day. That's especially true at MPs.

[ahydra]

That overcall is horrible, sorry. Only 4 cards (not really very good ones), ♥xxx and those diamond honours in a short suit add up to a very low ODR. Pass is indicated.

I like the raise to 2S, preferring to play the 3S raise more "mixed" (something like 7-9 points). Here you do have four spades and a shortage in their suit, but of your whopping total of 4 HCPs, two of them is a singleton queen of their suit and the other two is a queen not supported by the jack nor any intermediates. It's a pile of rubbish really. Of course, if you're Andrew Robson this is a clear raise to 3S (though he probably has some other bid available to show the mixed raise).

South no doubt thought: it's pairs, we're at favourable, and give partner a normal-looking minimum of KQJxx xxx Kxx xx and we get a top for -500. However, as previously mentioned you have a pile of rubbish, and if partner has the side card in the wrong place or something breaks badly it's 800. You could gamble it at pairs but it's probably a loser on average. Of course, it's a definite loser when North shows up with only four spades!

Overall verdict: 50/50

ahydra

[Winstonm]

1S deserved to go for -800 by itself.

2S overstates the reason to be bidding. 4S understates the need for psychiatric medications. 3S would have been the Goldilocks bid at this vulnerability.

Blame: Sorth and Nouth.

[eagles123]

to expand my feelings imo one spade is a "clever bid" that really isn't very clever. but the South player just shows a total lack of understanding of the very basics of bidding. whether they bid 2 spade, 3 spade, 4 spade, ***** 7 spades I don't care, they bid it and then SHUT UP. 2 spades then 4 spades in this situation just lacks any common sense. If they bid 4S straight up and it went bad okay, I can criticise the judgement, but at least it's sane. bidding 2 and then all of a sudden, after a totally predictable 4H bid coming in 4S is just clueless.

I think the 1S bid was poorly thought out, but it's not insanity. The south bidding is the bidding of someone who is totally clueless about how to bid at bridge.

[Wackojack]

eagles123, on 2018-August-27, 15:41, said:

to expand my feelings imo one spade is a "clever bid" that really isn't very clever. but the South player just shows a total lack of understanding of the very basics of bidding. whether they bid 2 spade, 3 spade, 4 spade, ***** 7 spades I don't care, they bid it and then SHUT UP. 2 spades then 4 spades in this situation just lacks any common sense. If they bid 4S straight up and it went bad okay, I can criticise the judgement, but at least it's sane. bidding 2 and then all of a sudden, after a totally predictable 4H bid coming in 4S is just clueless.

I think the 1S bid was poorly thought out, but it's not insanity. The south bidding is the bidding of someone who is totally clueless about how to bid at bridge.

Amen

[mcphee]

Both had death in mind, who to execute first. I think the 4S call falls into the worst bid, but 1S what led the player to take a flyer. I will vote 1S appeal gets denied and is the first to the needle. The other dude gets the rope.

[HardVector]

With preemptive hands, the idea is one bid and out. You bid as much as you can, then shut up. The idea is to make the opponents guess what to do, not necessarily play the contract. South making a second bid is a textbook preempting error. You allow the opponents to exchange information comfortably, then make a bid that gives them winning options with a good idea of what they can make playing it.

[gszes]

While I rag on south for 2s I see many that say maybe 4s is ok for a preempt but not for backing in. I would have bid 3s immediately but then I would do nothing further. It is just too hard to imagine many hands where -500 is our limit with -1100 opposite no slam still possible even opposite the pictured 5 card overcall.
While I am not a huge fan of the 1s overcall I feel it is more a matter of style then horrific in and of itself.