[helene_t]

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North thought that we still could have a hearts fit after the 3♦ raise, because North would not rebid 2♥ with a balanced hand. So she took 3♥ as natural and raised it.

South thought that once we have found a minor suit fit, we bid stoppers, not length (like after an inverted minors raise).

Thoughts?

[spotlight7]

helene_t, on 2018-July-19, 06:47, said:

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North thought that we still could have a hearts fit after the 3♦ raise, because North would not rebid 2♥ with a balanced hand. So she took 3♥ as natural and raised it.

South thought that once we have found a minor suit fit, we bid stoppers, not length (like after an inverted minors raise).

Thoughts?

With 4Hs partner often makes a negative X.

I would play 3Hs as showing a H stopper here.

[The_Badger]

Raising to 3♦ with 4432 shape and a ♠ stop doesn't quite look right. Right side the anticipated 3NT contract immediately by rebidding 2NT. That's my view.

[Stephen Tu]

I guess the main question is if forcing free bid denies 4 cd hearts or not. I think if it does, that makes it hard on some strong shapely diamond-heart hands interested in offering 5d rather than focusing solely on 3nt, after some sequences if neg double followed by diamonds is going to be taken as some sort of negative free bid type of hand, long diamonds not strong enough for immediate 2d. I'm not aware of any source material claiming new suit by responder should deny 4 of other major by default.


If the free bid doesn't deny hearts, then on this sort of sequence you just focus on the stopper in the opp's suit, and hope hearts take care of themselves. It would be rare and unlucky for hearts to be unstopped.


On the actual auction I probably would have tried passing 4h as South.

[rmnka447]

I don't think 2 ♦ necessarily denies 4 ♥. If it does, and you have to double to show the ♥, then there are hands where you are going to be unable to properly show your shape.

The choice of opener's rebids look to be between 2 NT and 2 ♥. I would rebid 2 ♥ with opener's hand. But if you bidding style prevents you from doing this with a balanced hand, I guess 2 NT will do.

[Tramticket]

What is the system? As you know, I play Acol and it is almost impossible to have a four-card heart suit (I suppose 0445 is possible).

Why wouldn't South double with a four-card heart suit in a hand with both red suits? For me, South has already denied a four-card heart suit. I think that it is more useful for 3♥ to show stoppers rather than trying for a Moysian.

[helene_t]

Double followed by diamonds would show a weak hand, so the way to bid a strong hand with five diamonds and four hearts is to bid diamonds first.

[Tramticket]

helene_t, on 2018-July-20, 01:37, said:

Double followed by diamonds would show a weak hand, so the way to bid a strong hand with five diamonds and four hearts is to bid diamonds first.

If you double with 5-4 and partner bids either red suit, you have found a fit. If partner bids NT, you raise. If partner re-bids clubs, you cue-bid. if partner cue-bids you can jump in diamonds, if you don't fancy AX as a stop.

Maybe with a good six-card diamond suit, I would elect to bid diamonds rather than emphasise a weak heart suit...

[Tramticket]

helene_t, on 2018-July-20, 01:37, said:

Double followed by diamonds would show a weak hand, so the way to bid a strong hand with five diamonds and four hearts is to bid diamonds first.

Thinking about it, double followed by hearts is weak for us, but double followed by diamonds wouldn't be weak.

[fromageGB]

I agree that after minor agreement at the 3-level, new suits are stoppers and not long (4), whereas at the 2-level a new suit is long.

This situation cries out for transfers after their overcall. South's 2♣! gets 2♦, then 2♥ shows four, while on this hand South's 2♠ describes the hand perfectly. Then it is up to North to support South's 5-card diamonds or rebid NT or anything else.

[dokoko]

It's a question of bidding space.

After 1♣(1♠)2♦ it is opener's duty to show hearts as he can do so without consuming space. This obviously isn't a reverse as it was responder who forced the bidding beyond 2♣. This would be different if 4th hand had raised to 2♠.

Once a minor is agreed it generally is more useful to show stoppers than new suits. You may, however, agree otherwise with partner. In fact, with a sensible partner I would play 1♣(1♠)2♦(-)3♦(-)3♥ shows a stopper while 1♣(1♠)2♦(2♠)3♦(-)3♥ shows a suit. But this may be too sophisticated for many players.

[nofr]

With this shape as opener
I would bid 2 ♠️ : relay without a good bid, probably a weak opening bid and not 4 cards of ♦️.

[ggwhiz]

helene_t, on 2018-July-20, 01:37, said:

Double followed by diamonds would show a weak hand, so the way to bid a strong hand with five diamonds and four hearts is to bid diamonds first.

I know a lot of people play this way but I dislike it a lot. A simple 2♠ raise by west can derail both. 3♥ by north when you have the weak diamond hand in particular.

[mikeh]

helene_t, on 2018-July-20, 01:37, said:

Double followed by diamonds would show a weak hand, so the way to bid a strong hand with five diamonds and four hearts is to bid diamonds first.

Helene

I really think you are asking for trouble with this style (I am speaking only of the way you show a weak hand with long diamonds). What the heck is North to do over a double with a hand such as Axx KQxx x AKxxx?

That looks like a 4H bid to me. If it doesn't to you, I am sure you can generate hands that do...and that will not play well when partner corrects to diamonds!

It is entirely playable to use the negative double to show a wide range of hands with 4+ hearts, using double then hearts to show extrea length and too weak to bid an immediate 2H, but I don't see how you can combine 'double is usually about hearts' and 'double could be long diamonds and weakness'

It isn't only good (for hearts) hands that cause issues. We can't correct even 2H to diamonds safely, especially if West passes, since his pass then our side has relatively few hcp, suggests that opener has spade length in addition to his hearts and clubs, making diamonds rather unpalatable.

The solution, which admittedly is far from ideal, is to give up on competing with weak hands in diamonds, or to go to some esoteric method such as transfers or, and I don't like it for imps but better players than I seem to use it ok, NFBs.

Retreating to the OP issue, I am with you in that the notion that one doubles with all hands with 4 hearts is a bad idea. If one has gf values, imo, and longer diamonds, one bids 2D.

Yes, LHO can jam you on occasion, but these are rare and even then one can often get back to hearts when appropriate. Having established a level of force (how much depends on agreement) opener can safely pass 2S and then, if we are gf and are not looking to defend, we reopen with 3H.

Similarly if he bids 3S, altho now we may miss 3N, but we can't cater to everything, and of course we can often double first if we don't mind partner passing.

With the North hand I might try 2N because my diamonds are so chunky that I expect to run the suit and would like to ppay notrump from my side.

But with say Qx Axxx Qxx AQxx, I don't think I have any choice but to bid 3D I would reserve 2H for a different hand. Of course, this is in part because I would expect partner to bid 3H naturally over my 3D.

Note that if what South wants is a spade stopper, he bids 3S, not 3H. I don't understand why South felt any need to show hearts stopped, especially when the most likely game is notrump, even with but a single spade stop. It's not like he has a hand where 11 tricks in diamonds rate to be better than 9 in notrump should partner pass 3N

So I am with North all the way here.

[helene_t]

mikeh, on 2018-August-03, 12:12, said:

What the heck is North to do over a double with a hand such as Axx KQxx x AKxxx?

That looks like a 4H bid to me. If it doesn't to you, I am sure you can generate hands that do...and that will not play well when partner corrects to diamonds!

Hi Mike,

Sorry if that wasn't clear. Dbl shows hearts and can a.o. be a weak hand with four hearts and a longer minor.

A weak hand with only diamonds makes a WJS.