[Tramticket]

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Teams (24 board match)

Pass? Or bid? If so, what?

[steve2005]

I would bid 2♠. Most people play this as natural. You don't need it to show a 2-suiter as you have double and 2NT for that. Some people would even play 1N as a 2-suiter.

[mr1303]

2S. I hope partner takes this seriously.

[ggwhiz]

 steve2005, on 2017-April-28, 09:47, said:

Some people would even play 1N as a 2-suiter.

I play this and the idea behind it is that 1nt is weak as in less than a takeout double so that partner won't get too excited opposite your 9-10 counts and can compete/act accordingly over this or a double that is the real deal.

That helps free up the 2♠ (almost always a 6 card suit) bid to be natural and both these bids are alertable. Lead direction comes into play as I would bid this with 1 less side Ace or both if white vs red and tend to avoid the bid if I don't want a spade lead.

[mycroft]

Yeah, if this isn't a "my spades are better than her spades" 2♠ call, I don't know what is.

Many people play Sandwich NT - where 1NT shows the other two suits, more distributional than double (which is more "cardy" than 1NT). Many people don't - because (while not in this auction, think 1♦-p-1♠) the "modern Precision" style (and "modern 2/1" style is getting there, and the 1♣ (clubs or balanced)-p-1♥ (4+spades) are so frequently "1♣ is NF, but it's 'never' passed") is so aggressive that you need a call for the 15-18 balanced hand, because partner has the unbiddable 9 count that makes 3NT odds-on (especially with the information given!)

Even though that style isn't common in my area, I play the latter way. I don't find the added description of having two ways to bid the two-suiters worth much in the competitive battle that's coming, and it's information given away to the opponents for *their* conventional battle that's coming (and the play or defence later).

I have one partner who plays with her regular partner (I think):

• double is takeout of spades;
• 1NT is sandwich;
• 2♣ is two-suit, but shows better diamonds than hearts (like 6-4 or something); and
• 2♠ shows better hearts than diamonds.

I'm sure it's useful when it comes up, but I do find that overkill.

[Tramticket]

 mycroft, on 2017-April-28, 12:49, said:

I have one partner who plays with her regular partner (I think):

• double is takeout of spades;
• 1NT is sandwich;
• 2♣ is two-suit, but shows better diamonds than hearts (like 6-4 or something); and
• 2♠ shows better hearts than diamonds.

I'm sure it's useful when it comes up, but I do find that overkill.

This is pretty much what I play with my most regular partner. On this occasion I was playing with less frequent partner - and I would not have been confident of how he would take a 2S bid.I guessed to bid 1NT, which worked OK on this occasion because partner took me out into his long heart suit, but I'm certainly seeing the attraction of a natural 2S.

Thank you all for your comments.

[Jinksy]

2♠ is natural for me, but I would prefer better spades and fewer outside values for it. If P has something like xx Kxxx Kxxx xxx, the bidding will continue (1N/2♣) P (P), and I'll get a chance to come back in at the same level. If I bid and P has nothing we might easily go for 500 against a part score.

I want to pass, then double 1N/2♣, and (assuming it's not left in) bid 2♠ to show a strong hand with game interest and good but not impregnable spades - can I do that?

[1eyedjack]

There is a lot of hand types that you might want to show here, and restricted bids available, so it comes down to priorities.

Generally, after (1C) - P ; (1S) - ?
you might yet have a playable Spade fit. The more Spades you have in 4th seat, the greater is that likelihood. But even without dramatic length in hand the Spades could be 4-4-4-1 around the table and, with a 4-4 fit you have the luxury of knowing how they are breaking. Furthermore, if you have considerable Spade length there is less danger of the suit being lost if you start with a pass and back in later if, say, your system precludes showing it immediately.

You might also have a playable Club fit. The 1C opener being generally pretty nebulous this is actually rather more likely than the Spade fit. Many pairs recognise this by having bids of Clubs (even in direct seat over opener) to be natural, but fewer have ways of playing in Clubs when the fit is more evenly divided.

Amsbury and Payne in TNT and Competitive Bidding (long since out of print I suspect) had some interesting ideas about this, and came up with something along the lines of

After (1C) - P ; (1-suit) - ?

X = 3-suited short in LHO
1N = 3-suited short in RHO
2C/2N = 2-suited in the unbids

Personally I quite liked it. Note that there is a technical reason for the X and 1N being that way round (intuitively you would expect X to be more t/o of the suit X'ed). It puts a lot of pressure on opener if there is a threat that the X may get passed round to responder.

[steve2005]

 Jinksy, on 2017-April-28, 13:11, said:

2♠ is natural for me, but I would prefer better spades and fewer outside values for it

Better spades? You might as well find another use for 2♠ as your not getting better spades!

[FelicityR]

In the absence of conventional agreements, there's (as far as I can see) no hurry to bid those ♠s. West's next call is probably either 1NT (12-14) or 2♣. There's just not enough high cards in the pack to foresee any other action. 2♠ on the second round by South would, I feel, be natural.

If West does (perhaps unbelievably) make any bid other than 1NT or 2♣ then partner has absolutely nothing, and the hand could be a serious misfit. Best to pass initially and see what happens first.

[Zelandakh]

 mycroft, on 2017-April-28, 12:49, said:

I have one partner who plays with her regular partner (I think):

• double is takeout of spades;
• 1NT is sandwich;
• 2♣ is two-suit, but shows better diamonds than hearts (like 6-4 or something); and
• 2♠ shows better hearts than diamonds.

I'm sure it's useful when it comes up, but I do find that overkill.

One of the top female English pairs was also playing it the last time I saw their cc, which admittedy is a few years back. Much more common though is to play that bidding LHO's suit is artificial but bidding RHO's suit is natural.

[GrahamJson]

Like a lot of questions asked on BBO it perhaps should be asked along the lines of "what is the best agreement that covers situations like this?" In the absence of any agreement usually the simplest bid that is least open to misunderstanding is best. In this case I would suggest a pass. Perhaps 2S should show a hand such as this, but if partner believes you are showing a two suited things are likely to end badly.

[wank]

Easy 2s bid. You're too strong to wait around and hope to catch up

[RedSpawn]

 Tramticket, on 2017-April-28, 09:03, said:

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Pass? Or bid? If so, what?

I play "power" doubles with a hand this strong. This Hand is in the 17+ HCP category with a spade rebid that is clearly superior to whatever collection of spades East claims to have.

Takeout doubles can have 2 meanings. The 1st 1 is you are taking out the spade suit and are looking for a fit elsewhere with 13+ points. The 2nd and more sinister use of takeout double is basically when you have an unbalanced hand stronger than a typical NT and have a rebid available. You are communicating to partner that you have a *power* hand and this contract maybe ours if partner has 6-9 points.

Do a power double and see if partner gets a chance to bid. Whatever he bids or calls, you must bid 2♠ afterwards. Now your partner knows you have 17-19 HCP and at least 5-6 well established spades which describes your hand perfectly.

Your partner can either pass or continuing bidding with the proper assessment of your hand.

[GrahamJson]

 RedSpawn, on 2017-April-29, 04:19, said:

I play "power" doubles with a hand this strong. This Hand is in the 17+ HCP category with a spade rebid that is clearly superior to whatever collection of spades East claims to have.

Takeout doubles can have 2 meanings. The 1st 1 is you are taking out the spade suit and are looking for a fit elsewhere with 13+ points. The 2nd and more sinister use of takeout double is basically when you have an unbalanced hand stronger than a typical NT and have a rebid available. You are communicating to partner that you have a *power* hand and this contract maybe ours if partner has 6-9 points.

Do a power double and see if partner gets a chance to bid. Whatever he bids or calls, you must bid 2♠ afterwards. Now your partner knows you have 17-19 HCP and at least 5-6 well established spades which describes your hand perfectly.

Your partner can either pass or continuing bidding with the proper assessment of your hand.

What do you bid with a huge two or three suiter short in spades? I think most would double then bid 2S. Unless you have a very firm agreement with partner that a tox followed by a bid of the doubled suit shows that suit, doubling here is likely to lead to a very muddled auction.

[sfi]

 mr1303, on 2017-April-28, 10:02, said:

2S. I hope partner takes this seriously.

Partner should. This is a dangerous auction for our side, so I'm not going to bid their suit vul at the two level without a pretty good hand.

[msjennifer]

We use exactly the same process as applied by Mycroft and partner.With such a hand and the given bidding we pass and then bid 2S or not on the next round depending upon the air around the table.

[ggwhiz]

 RedSpawn, on 2017-April-29, 04:19, said:

Do a power double and see if partner gets a chance to bid. Whatever he bids or calls, you must bid 2♠ afterwards. Now your partner knows you have 17-19 HCP and at least 5-6 well established spades which describes your hand perfectly.

I don't know anyone (else?) that plays this. Partner bids 2♥ (or whatever) and my 2♠ cue is most often a stronger invite than a raise in HEARTS.

Marshal Miles talked Eddie Kantar into playing all doubles are either takeout or penalty, look at your hand to decide which. Alertable of course and I believe this treatment is too.

Kantar has a hilarious description of this experiment buried in the humour pages of his website including defending a 1 level contract doubled in the opponents 12 card fit before they abandoned this after 1 session.

[rmnka447]

2 ♠

2 ♠ should show a pretty good 6 vardf suit in this spot in the auction. That's exactly what you have.

Vulnerable, it also ought to show a very good hand as you know ♠ aren't breaking particularly well.

[mr1303]

 sfi, on 2017-April-29, 06:51, said:

Partner should. This is a dangerous auction for our side, so I'm not going to bid their suit vul at the two level without a pretty good hand.

Last time I had this auction partner had a flattish 10 count and passed, missing game.