[johnu]

RedSpawn, on 2017-April-01, 13:28, said:

PLAY YOUR POSITION regardless of your professed rating or title. If you have a garbage hand, sit in the corner, be quiet in the auction, and respond when asked (e.g. takeout doubles and forcing bids). Otherwise press PASS and allow your partner to do his job effectively without all of the unwarranted, distracting NOISE coming from the West seat.

Interesting, I tell that to my opponents every time they get a good board against me after opening a preempt. Why do they laugh at me?

[RedSpawn]

msjennifer, on 2017-April-01, 06:19, said:

Unfortunately one was born an expert(?) One was never ever a beginner. Those who open 4H have not answered my question that what will they open on x,AKxxxxxx,xx,xx ? They can't open 4H ,as that bid is reserved for the garbage hand,so Pass,1/2/3 H are left.Judge for yourself !

Jennifer that is an UNFAIR question. Once you are in the Advanced and Expert level, the range for bids increases exponentially. That means that 1-of-a-suit opening bids and preemptive bids can mean WHATEVER YOU WANT IT TO BE.

In second seat with both teams vulnerable, 4♥ could range from a textbook classic of x♠,AKxxxxxx♥,xx♦,xx♣ to gourmet goulash garbage 9♠ 10987645432♥ Q3♦ 9♣ .

It is YOUR responsibility to be amazingly clairvoyant about your partner's suit quality and to know from looking at your hand if your partner is bidding the former or the latter (even if you are void of ♥).

Of course I am kidding, but sadly, I think this is the unwritten "rider clause" in most partnership agreements on BBO.

[sfi]

RedSpawn, on 2017-April-01, 11:53, said:

For example, take the board below:

---

Nice carefully constructed hand. However, if you pass the opponents are definitely finding 5C on the auction (2C) - 4S and South doesn't have much reason to raise to slam. Nor will E-W find a 5S bid. If North bids 5C over a 4H opening, South may like their heart void opposite a couple of small hearts, and raise to 6C. Oops.

You will notice that in neither auction does E-W get to play at the four level, so the fact that 4S makes is a mirage.

You can construct hands where opening 4H is a loser, but this isn't one of them. Your chance of a good score is (admittedly slightly) better if you open on this layout than if you pass.

[blackshoe]

I would bid 4♥. It's asystemic with most of my partners, but I'd do it anyway. Call it a psych if you like. They will, especially if it doesn't work out.

[neilkaz]

cherdano, on 2017-March-31, 14:37, said:

I can't believe anyone would pass this. If 4H breaks this partnership, then you should be glad to get out.
Oh. And if you were taught that 4H shows 8 tricks at equal vulnerability, then it's about time to drop out of the class and start forgetting what you were taught.

This hand makes 7 tricks in hearts, and 0 elsewhere. End of story.

Hmm...no way to click a thumbs up icon to like a post here? OK I will just say that I like it and agree with 4♥ since I have a 9 card suit.

[miamijd]

Cyberyeti, on 2017-March-31, 07:13, said:

Unfortunately partner had Axxxx, AK, AKx, Jxx and went down in 1♠ with 6♥ cold, opps had 10/9 and 4th seat had too many spades to want to protect.

It is not danger free to pass. Not sure what I'd do at the table, probably 2♥ which for us can be a near bust, and if partner inquires I'll bid 4♥ showing something bad and distributional, but more difficult if you play more normal weak 2s.

I pass on opening bid in 2d seat. I certainly don't pass partners 1s 4th seat opener. Not sure hoe p got dropped in 1s.

[miamijd]

sfi, on 2017-April-01, 03:18, said:

It's easy after you open 4H. Partner asks for keycards, finds you don't have the club ace, and bids the slam.

It's easy after pass too

[the hog]

" Actually, no-one's commented that while 4♥ takes a level away from the opponents, it could possibly also bounce the opponents into a slam easier as a suit, 4NT, or double bid over 4♥ by North would be seen as stronger than a similar bid over 3♥, especially at this vulnerability with a passed partner. "

This is incorrect logic. Over a 4H bid, if next hand has a good hand, she is under pressure. A good pd knows this and will make allowances. If you roll over and die by passing you give theopps a lot of room.

"Your super champion intentions are meant only to obstruct opponents and also your partner.I follow what is given in the text books"
Incorrect again. Textbooks are guides only,

"ENTTLED to ridicule others not agreeing with them"
As much as it pains me to say this, Arend was not being rude. As much more as it goes against the grain, neither was Timo.

" Those who open 4H have not answered my question that what will they open on x,AKxxxxxx,xx,xx ?"
4H of course. I have 1 less H.

"Generally, a preemptive suit should contain 2 of the top 3 honors OR 3 of the 5 top honors."
In the 1950s this reasoning was true.
:
Opening 4♥ with such obscene garbage is not bridge, it is Texas Hold Em Poker."
Is it? Tell that to real experts.

Oh it hurts to agree with Arend and Timo and even Eagles, but I have to here.

[Cyberyeti]

miamijd, on 2017-April-01, 18:52, said:

It's easy after pass too

This is also true, I couldn't see why people were missing slam here.

[johnu]

sfi, on 2017-April-01, 16:05, said:

You can construct hands where opening 4H is a loser, but this isn't one of them.

RedSpawn also implied that the final contract was going to be 4♥X going down 3 tricks which would be worth more than a game with no slam making.

How is he going to get to 4♥X? Double of 4♥ is not played as penalty, you can't handle a diamond takeout, and probably don't want to hear a spade takeout. If you do double, I would expect a prompt 5♦ from partner.

[RedSpawn]

the hog, on 2017-April-01, 23:46, said:

"Generally, a preemptive suit should contain 2 of the top 3 honors OR 3 of the 5 top honors."
In the 1950s this reasoning was true.

Opening 4♥ with such obscene garbage is not bridge, it is Texas Hold Em Poker."

Is it? Tell that to real experts.

Oh it hurts to agree with Arend and Timo and even Eagles, but I have to here.

COULDN'T AGREE MORE WITH REFERENCE TO REAL EXPERTS AND OPENING LIGHT ON HCP OR SUIT QUALITY: PLEASE SEE BELOW

rhm, on 2017-March-30, 07:26, said:

How light is light. Even if you open "light" most will agree you need a floor, below which you will only go in exceptional circumstances (e.g psyche etc).

Quote:

How light is too light for a 1-bid in (a) Precision (b) Standard?

Answer

Openings need to be sounder in Standard because it just gets too wide a range. Opening the bidding has a built in advantage, all your bidding tools now working for you. In Precision, nothing special 10 counts is too light. You need Shape or nice cards to open the 10's.

This answer was given yesterday by Meckstroth

• Won nine world championships, including five Bermuda Bowls and the Bridge Triple Crown Won sixty-one national championships -- more than one per year he’s been alive!
• Attained the most ACBL masterpoints in history (83,000 and counting)
  
• Won ACBL Player of the Year (most platinum points in a year) three times Won the Barry Crane 500 a record eleven times

see http://bridgewinners...eff-meckstroth/

Further down the same link:

Quote

What do minimum strength Meckwell Precision 1D openers look like third seat white on red?

Answer

I have to say whatever we feel like doing at the time. Not going to go far down this path. I will say we pass a lot more now when we have crap.

Rainer Herrmann

Wait a minute, did a World Champion just say that he passes a lot more now when he has crap hands for 1-of-a-suit bids --- even when bridge is CLEARLY a bidder's game?

I think it's fair to say that if he presses PASS a lot more now when they have crap for 1-of-a-suit bid, I think the same rule would apply for a very poor suit quality weak 4 pre-emptive bid too.

Also, if he suggests the 1-of-a-suit bids in Standard needs to be sounder, what reasoning would he have to suggest that a preemptive bid needs to be less sounder than a normal preemptive bid (of the 1950's per se)? Walk-me through the logic of why 1 level needs to be sounder but ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING goes for a 4♥ opening bid in 2nd seat with both teams vulnerable.

It seems to me he is saying if you want Standard to work for you, whether preemptive bids or 1-of-a-suit-bids, the openings need to decent and sound.

So opening bids of "whatever I feel like bidding" doesn't seem to be on the menu for Standard.

Sounds truly truly outrageous, right?

[johnu]

RedSpawn, on 2017-April-02, 13:36, said:

Wait a minute, did a World Champion just say that he passes a lot more now when he has crap hands for 1-of-a-suit bids --- even when bridge is CLEARLY a bidder's game?

I think it's fair to say that if his presses PASS a lot more now when they have crap for 1-of-a-suit bid, I think the same rule would apply for a very poor suit quality weak 4 pre-emptive bid too.

He was specifically talking about random/bad 10 point hands. I have no idea how you extrapolate that to opening 4 bids.

RedSpawn, on 2017-April-02, 13:36, said:

Also, if he suggests the 1-of-a-suit bids in Standard needs to be sounder, what reasoning would he have to suggest that a preemptive bid needs to be less sounder than a normal preemptive bid (of the 1950's per se)? Walk-me through the logic of why 1 level needs to be sounder but ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING goes for a 4♥ opening bid in 2nd seat with both teams vulnerable.

I assume he means that 1 bids in standard bidding need to be stronger than Precision 1 bids because Precision 1 bids are limited by not opening 1♣, while standard bidding could have 20+ points so it's too hard to narrow the range. I don't see any useful connection with preemptive opening bid theory.

Actually, in another post, Meckstroth did say that for a while, they had become more conservative on their preemptive bids (not clear if this was referring to preemptive jump overcalls, or opening bids) but had recently changed to more aggressive bids. But he was probably talking more about Bergen style hyper aggressive preempts with bad, short suits that bear no resemblance to 50's style preempts.

In any case, conservative for Meckwell is light to very light for everybody but the most aggressive bidders. Comparing Meckwell's "sound" preemptive style to the 50's is laughable.

[Jinksy]

RedSpawn, on 2017-April-01, 13:28, said:

Excuse me, West having ♥1098765432 is RIDICULOUS, so how is it not possible for distribution to be WAY OFF on this goulash-like board?

Using probability and normal distribution bell curves on a "goulash-like" board is NOT advisable. You will choke on the cayenne pepper!

Since nobody's picked you up on this, that's not how distribution works. Sure, there'll be some extra perforce by virtue of you having 9 of the hearts that your opps might have had, but the most likely distribution of the other three hands is still a roughly even distribution of the outstanding cards. I.e. each other player rates to be approx 4144 or 4234, maybe 5431 or 5440 in some order - but not 8032.

[Vampyr]

neilkaz, on 2017-April-01, 18:14, said:

Hmm...no way to click a thumbs up icon to like a post here? OK I will just say that I like it and agree with 4♥ since I have a 9 card suit.

You definitely have enough posts to upvote. You should if you really like the post. Or not; I have done it for you.

[wank]

red spawn, there's always a period of adjustment for people who are new to the forum. they tend to have been doing well in their own pond and not have an appreciation of where they fit into the greater scheme of things. this forum has plenty of professional players and internationals on it. coming in the top 3rd of a BBO tournament for example sadly doesn't mean you're going to win the next bermuda bowl or that you're in any way close to the level of many of the posters with whom you're disagreeing so vociferously. if you adapt and can approach the forum with the right mindset you'll learn a lot.

[Nabooba]

Mr Spawn, Meckstroth was talking about the 1D opening, not a pre emptive bid.
Walk-me through the logic of why 1 level needs to be sounder but ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING goes for a 4♥ opening bid in 2nd seat with both teams vulnerable.
One thing you will learn as you you play more and more is that shape is everything. Many years ago people relied on high card points. Now within reason, shape takes precedence. Here you have 9 hearts. Likely distribution of the remainder is 1-2-1. You will likely make 7, 8 or 9 tricks with hearts as trump. Your hand is worth nothing outside of hearts. Perhaps you should have asked Meckstroth what he would open with that hand?

[RedSpawn]

Jinksy, on 2017-April-02, 16:19, said:

Since nobody's picked you up on this, that's not how distribution works. Sure, there'll be some extra perforce by virtue of you having 9 of the hearts that your opps might have had, but the most likely distribution of the other three hands is still a roughly even distribution of the outstanding cards. I.e. each other player rates to be approx 4144 or 4234, maybe 5431 or 5440 in some order - but not 8032.

Come on!

What is the likelihood of your receiving 9♠, T98765432♥, Q3♦, 9♣ in the 1st place?

This is freakishly "MONSTER MASH" ugly.

Now that you have this freakishly ugly improbable hand, let's hold ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL FOR THE REST OF THE BOARD. . . in terms of probability curves and distribution.

Ummm NO!

When you see a black cat walking and mewing in the bridge parlor, recognize the harbinger for what it is.
Welcome the cat, scratch its neck, and understand what his presence is telling you about the Bridge Matrix.

Neo, the cat is telling you the bridge programming code has been altered. Therefore, using past experience and results as a future predictor of distribution is misplaced since there is "a glitch in the Bridge Matrix".

Normal rules do NOT apply to this board as distribution parameters have changed.

Why? Because the 9 card ♥ suit evidence in your own hand already tells you that distribution on this board is wacky and wayward!

Therefore, using terms like "ON AVERAGE" and "ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL" on THIS board is dismissive of the anomaly itself. It would be imprudent to apply your experience base with NORMAL boards to what is clearly an abnormal and freakishly different scenario.

Proceed with extreme caution on this goulash-like board before you brazenly put the partnership assets at risk.

[gszes]

4h I will try to dispassionately go over the arguments in favor of 4h while quietly wishing this had been a 1st seat problem vs a 2nd or vul vs not (this last point made because there at many factors that contribute to choosing a bid in bridge not just suit quality).
1. The fact that rho has passed means anything LHO wishes to do and 4h will make anything they wish to do even more strained due to the now average of 6hcp their p now holds.
2. PASS will never accomplish (1)
3. ON AVERAGE our p will have the best HCP hand at the table and they need to be convinced our hand needs to be played in hearts.
4. PASS might never accomplish (3) and hearts may well become impossible to bid later on in many auctions.
5. GAME our way can become almost impossible to bid if we pass when p has just 1 heart and 2 aces, making us monstrous favorites to make 4h.
6. If p has just 1 heart and 2 aces our opps are monstrous favorites to have a game and 4h makes it exceedingly hard to bid (unlike pass).
7. There is a certain amount of risk in all preemptive action but the odds seem to favor boldness here with rho having already limited their hand.
8. ANY time p is considering slam our hand will not disappoint with its otherwise balanced distribution (most of the time p will bid rkc when slamming and sign off in the right spot).

Will bidding 4h always work? NO but the odds of the game of bridge dictate 4h will be the superior action in the long run.

[RedSpawn]

Cyberyeti, on 2017-April-01, 13:03, said:

Sorry, you must have blundered into the wrong forum, N/B is that way

Your example hand is ridiculous.

a) you being cold for 4♠ is a mirage, opps are cold for 5♣ and may well bid it.
b) if 4♥ is doubled for penalties, partner is quite likely to bid 4♠
c) step out of the 1950s, nobody any good is that rigid with their preempts any more

Also a very good amount of the time, hearts will divide 2-1-1 round the table so if either partner has the ace or the doubleton and you'll have 8 tricks, if not you'll have 7 which is reasonable for 4♥.

Would love to play against you, my preempting style would give you apoplexy.

Oh really?

Let's play hardball and live in your BRIDGE MATRIX...Same Exact Board.

---

AUCTION DESCRIPTION:

South plays hardball and modern bridge and none of that "1950's" mess RedSpawn was spouting and opens 3♦ with 1 HCP.

West sees the 3♦ preemptive bid and raises the auction even higher to 4♥ close out because after all, West knows best. His shapely, 9 card ♥ suit hand with 2 HCP is useless if he can't declare ♥ as trump. Also, West believes ON AVERAGE, ♥ trump will split 2-1-1 so 4♥ should take at least 7 tricks end of story and is thus a worthwhile pursuit.

Now, North being of sound mind and body is sitting pretty in 3rd seat. He wipes his monitor to make sure he is seeing right and then doubles 4♥ mercilessly. 😈

Since South faithfully trusts his partner 😇, he will NOT pull his partner's double. Why? Because a double after a 3♦ preemptive bid is NOT a request for a different suit -- it is a punishing BATTLE AX penalty.

So, East has to wonder. Does East commit a primordial bridge sin and override his partner's 4♥ bid with a 4♠ or does he trust his partner's judgment? 👍 or 👎?

East is void of ♥ so it is quite possible that his partner is sitting pretty on a very long high quality ♥ suit and only needs a few quick tricks on outside suits from his partner.

How does East respond to 4♥X by North when he can't see his partner's cards? This really gets to the ♥ of the question Jennifer was asking about suit quality of 4 level bids (no pun intended).

MORAL OF THE STORY:

The problem with poor suit quality preemptive bids is not what West may bid per se, but what his partner decides to bid in response. Usually partner is best to "PASS", even if they have 15-16 HCP. This is because the Pre-emptor is already counting on his partner for two or three tricks depending on vulnerability so one should only support partner if they have value above and beyond these tricks.

[alok c]

" ----.The old system was based on controls & it has taken me many years to realize that was wrong.The distribution is the most important thing & you should gear your bidding to concentrate on that first."
-Benito garozzo
Perhaps the greatest bridge player of all time.