[fromageGB]

European Council president Donald Tusk claimed Brexit could trigger the end of ‘Western political civilisation’

Wow, Cameron on steroids. Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt was how IBM ruled the waves in past eras, but "remain" adopts it in spades.

[shyams]

fromageGB, on 2016-June-14, 04:08, said:

European Council president Donald Tusk claimed Brexit could trigger the end of ‘Western political civilisation’

Wow, Cameron on steroids. Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt was how IBM ruled the waves in past eras, but "remain" adopts it in spades.

A newspaper article from earlier in the month (link)

Quote

European Council president Donald Tusk has warned EU leaders in the bluntest terms that their 'utopian' illusions are tearing Europe apart, and that any attempt to seize on Brexit to force through yet more integration would be a grave mistake. In a passionate plea to Europe’s top conservatives, he accused the EU elites of living in a fool’s paradise and provoking the eurosceptic revolt now erupting in a string of countries.

“It is us who today are responsible,” he said, speaking at a conclave of Christian-Democrat and centre-right leaders in Luxembourg. “Obsessed with the idea of instant and total integration, we failed to notice that ordinary people, the citizens of Europe, do not share our Euro-enthusiasm.”

In other words, I don't believe the headline snippets as published by the UK media here. If I were to guess, he wasn't addressing/blaming us -- he was expressing his worries for the entire EU region.

[fromageGB]

shyams, on 2016-June-14, 04:25, said:

A newspaper article from earlier in the month ...
In other words, I don't believe the headline snippets as published by the UK media here. If I were to guess, he wasn't addressing/blaming us -- he was expressing his worries for the entire EU region.

Well, maybe you should believe some things. The speech you refer to was a couple of weeks ago, in which he sensibly said that "we failed to notice that ordinary people, the citizens of Europe, do not share our Euro-enthusiasm.”

The recent extract is from an interview with the German Bild yesterday, and he said "En tant qu'historien, je crains que cela ne constitue en fait le début du processus de destruction non seulement de l'UE, mais aussi de la civilisation politique occidentale.“

While my German is rusty, this looks pretty much like French to me, and he thinks the end of civilisation is nigh.

[Al_U_Card]

He is expressing his opinion that this would signal the BEGINNING OF THE END of the EU and subsequently of the politics of our society as we know it... drama queen level 4...

[mike777]

shyams, on 2016-June-13, 02:30, said:

Why do you feel like we care what you think? Or that the questions posed by you are relevant and deserve a response?

You answer your own questions and mine, if you don't think fighting for the Union/ EU is worthwhile or even relevant or worth a response. I just wondered if Brits or for that matter any posters in Europe felt any sense of duty to the EU, or if that was even relevant, thanks you answered my main question.

I understand duty is a very old fashion word and concept, even archaic and perhaps irrelevant in the case of the EU.
--------------

[Vampyr]

Zelandakh, on 2016-June-14, 03:11, said:

Over half of immigrants come from outside of the EU. If politicians really felt that it was a serious problem they could drastically reduce that amount. The truth is that every analysis done on the subject has shown that immigrants are a positive and necessary part of the UK economy. Migrants from every EU country, particularly Poland, are a net plus. The countries that are questionable to benefits, perhaps even negative, are Pakistan and most of the African nations.

Are you sure it is EU immigration that people are afraid of? I mean, to be quite blunt, who would clean our houses and renovate our kitchens if not for Polish immigration. I would like to see an end result where some freedom of movement (not, eg benefit tourism) among Europe is still possible.

But it seems that all new residents prefer to live in London, where the housing situation is bad and constantly getting worse. London's position in England is much too dominant, and I don't see a solution to that.

[mike777]

Vampyr, on 2016-June-14, 23:52, said:

Are you sure it is EU immigration that people are afraid of? I mean, to be quite blunt, who would clean our houses and renovate our kitchens if not for Polish immigration. I would like to see an end result where some freedom of movement (not, eg benefit tourism) among Europe is still possible.

But it seems that all new residents prefer to live in London, where the housing situation is bad and constantly getting worse. London's position in England is much too dominant, and I don't see a solution to that.

Vampyr....you note on this issue which you discuss often...but if you allow capitalism and free markets the problem will work itself out. The problem is you and many others demand a nonmarket answer.
Granted one that requires years


A simple basic answer I showed you a solution for millions..millions


YOUr response was.....you would be unhappy

[mike777]

Vampyr, on 2016-June-14, 23:52, said:

Are you sure it is EU immigration that people are afraid of? I mean, to be quite blunt, who would clean our houses and renovate our kitchens if not for Polish immigration. I would like to see an end result where some freedom of movement (not, eg benefit tourism) among Europe is still possible.

But it seems that all new residents prefer to live in London, where the housing situation is bad and constantly getting worse. London's position in England is much too dominant, and I don't see a solution to that.

vAMP i HAVE TOLD you a possible solution over and over and over again....sigh yet you dont see it.


I will not repeat all of them but here is one:
1) less dominant position of lOndon

------


to put it another way if london house prices are insanely high...then move...live somewhere not in lONdon.....



I repeat te housing question in lOndon is old, very old and very easy to fix.


MOve

----------------


If cannot afford to live in LOndon...move...you fail to have the money

[mike777]

I give you a real very real world example...


My wife and I would love to live in London...we cannot afford it...we move.


--------------------


posters respond that we should pay for you or others should pay for you

[Zelandakh]

Vampyr, on 2016-June-14, 23:52, said:

Are you sure it is EU immigration that people are afraid of? I mean, to be quite blunt, who would clean our houses and renovate our kitchens if not for Polish immigration. I would like to see an end result where some freedom of movement (not, eg benefit tourism) among Europe is still possible.

But it seems that all new residents prefer to live in London, where the housing situation is bad and constantly getting worse. London's position in England is much too dominant, and I don't see a solution to that.

Benefit tourism is one of those things that is talked about a lot but the evidence suggests it is practically non-existent for the UK. There are many reasons for this, from lack of knowledge of what the benefits are to the simple truth that benefits in the UK are amongst the least generous around. What is absolutely certain is that non-UK EU immigrants are less likely than UK citizens to claim the big benefits - unemployment benefit, housing benefit and tax credits.

As for London, well your first comment is to some extent an answer to your last. Perhaps people in and around London worry about their cleaners but those "in the sticks" tend to make the effort of cleaning their own houses. London is where the money is so naturally economic migrants cluster there, whether they be from other EU countries, outside the EU or even just from within the UK. Indeed, since many of the big employers of immigrants are distributed more widely throughout the UK, it would not surprise me if their migration pattern is actually less London-centric than migrating Brits. And you can count me in that as I was brought up in Dorset but made my way to South London before jetting over to Germany. Minus the Germany part, I suspect that is a story repeated many times. Perhaps the major of London should consider a ban on UK "immigrants" to his city!

[helene_t]

Vampyr, on 2016-June-14, 23:52, said:

Are you sure it is EU immigration that people are afraid of? I mean, to be quite blunt, who would clean our houses and renovate our kitchens if not for Polish immigration. I would like to see an end result where some freedom of movement (not, eg benefit tourism) among Europe is still possible.

According to the polls there is a quite strong correlation between high income/education and pro-EUness. This trend would be even stronger if you control for party confounding, since conservatives tend to have high income and also tend to be against EU.

I think this is consistent with immigration being perceived as an important part of the brexit issue: Rich people want immigrants to come and work for them, poor people don't want immigrants to steal their jobs.

As for benefit tourism, it is really a non-issue. And besides, if you want immigrants to come, stay and pay taxes, you also have to grant them a certain safety net.

[mike777]

helene_t, on 2016-June-15, 02:18, said:

According to the polls there is a quite strong correlation between high income/education and pro-EUness. This trend would be even stronger if you control for party confounding, since conservatives tend to have high income and also tend to be against EU.

I think this is consistent with immigration being perceived as an important part of the brexit issue: Rich people want immigrants to come and work for them, poor people don't want immigrants to steal their jobs.

As for benefit tourism, it is really a non-issue. And besides, if you want immigrants to come, stay and pay taxes, you also have to grant them a certain safety net.

Friedman argued it was a great benefit, a huge one that some immigrants came and paid taxes and in fact were entitled to get something close to none. Again these seem to be an old fashion..out of date ideas. Something where they paid and their children or grandchildren gained compared to the old country. A country that gained benefits from immigrants and those of a first generation gained or where entitled to very little.


As your post points out this has changed a great deal and in fact they are entitled.
----

Keep in mind we talk of a first generation that is older, sicker that fights so hard to get here that they work, pay taxes and then die, often die during the flight for a better life for their very young child or grandchild and get something close to zero in taxpayer benefits for themselves.

[Vampyr]

mike777, on 2016-June-15, 01:51, said:

vAMP i HAVE TOLD you a possible solution over and over and over again....sigh yet you dont see it.

to put it another way if london house prices are insanely high...then move...live somewhere not in lONdon.....



I repeat te housing question in lOndon is old, very old and very easy to fix.


MOve

----------------


If cannot afford to live in LOndon...move...you fail to have the money

If only it were that simple.

If everyone who can't afford to live in London moved out, we would have no teachers, no nurses... People in these professions are paid so little (maybe a third of what they would get in eg the US, with the cost of living far higher) that special housing developments are built just for them.

There are in fact lots of very low-paying jobs in London that people rely on. Retail, child and elder care, and many more. You seem to think that I love paying housing benefit. I don't but I realise that it is necessary. What I don't like is that people who choose not to work also receive benefits, and in many cases would receive less if they got an unskilled job, so in fact it is also the fault of the way the benefit system works.

Finally, I find that I experience much less embarrassment when I post sober.

[PassedOut]

Vampyr, on 2016-June-15, 10:07, said:

Finally, I find that I experience much less embarrassment when I post sober.

Nicely put.

[shyams]

LOL. Vote Leave is now convincingly ahead -- even according to the FT! https://ig.ft.com/si...brexit-polling/ tracks the poll of polls. And, for the first time, they think the Leave campaign is ahead by a greater than the margin for statistical error.

The times they are a changin' Bob Dylan

Quote

Come writers and critics, who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide, the chance won’t come again
And don’t speak too soon, for the wheel’s still in spin
And there’s no tellin’ who that it’s namin’
For the loser now will be later to win,
For the times they are a-changin’

[1eyedjack]

In one of the Bremain campaign's political broadcasts, they included sound-bites in support of staying in, provided by various from among the rich and famous. One of them was Stephen Hawking, who informs us that most advances in technology take place through co-operation. This observation is at odds with what I was always taught in history lessons at school: that it is conflict rather than harmony that drives technological advancement. Indeed much of the US dominance in micro-electronics, semi-conductors, computers and so forth arose from the space race between USA and Soviet Union in the 1960s. Had those countries been the best of lovey-dovey bum chums in that era it would have delayed progress, not accelerated it.

[shyams]

The Russian guide to Brexit

According to an op-ed written in the Moscow Times (link here), Brexit offers many opportunities for Russian people.

1. Property: Any dramatic fall in the value of British pound will dramatically improve the purchasing power of Russian wealth in London.
2. Opacity: Brexit will put to a halt the recent clamoring for full disclosures of foreign investments (esp. in the property market)!
3. British political class: Cheaper, opaque and less influential, the U.K. following Brexit would be a U.K. perfectly suited to Russian interests. It would be both weaker and friendlier.
4. Opportunities within the EU: Thrown into turmoil, Brussels and Berlin would no longer be able to enforce the consensus on Russia-focused sanctions. They would have to be dropped in order to create and reward allies for the far trickier negotiations (and likely punitive trade moves) between the U.K. and the bloc.

Makes for fun reading!

[mike777]

Vampyr, on 2016-June-15, 10:07, said:

If only it were that simple.

If everyone who can't afford to live in London moved out, we would have no teachers, no nurses... People in these professions are paid so little (maybe a third of what they would get in eg the US, with the cost of living far higher) that special housing developments are built just for them.

There are in fact lots of very low-paying jobs in London that people rely on. Retail, child and elder care, and many more. You seem to think that I love paying housing benefit. I don't but I realise that it is necessary. What I don't like is that people who choose not to work also receive benefits, and in many cases would receive less if they got an unskilled job, so in fact it is also the fault of the way the benefit system works.

Finally, I find that I experience much less embarrassment when I post sober.

Vampyr, first off thanks for taking the time to write and reply with a very thought full post.


As someone who has visited London often. a great city, a very old city pretty city I understand your comments.

I grew up in Chicago, basically a city that is close to unlivable today where i grew up.
I lived in Los Angles very many years, a city unlivable for the most part. NOte many who claim to live there in fact do not live in the city. The few who do live in very rich areas.


My point was London, the city, sounds like it has become unlivable unless you are rich, very rich...you know the facts best but moving should be an option for you.

[Vampyr]

mike777, on 2016-June-16, 23:12, said:

My point was London, the city, sounds like it has become unlivable unless you are rich, very rich...you know the facts best but moving should be an option for you.

What do you mean, an option for me personally?

[mike777]

Vampyr, on 2016-June-16, 23:20, said:

What do you mean, an option for me personally?

YES