[Cyberyeti]

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Where do you go next ?

You do play voidwood, but normally only on a jump so the exact meaning of 5♣ is not crystal clear.

What do you think is the approach that gives best chance of arriving in the right spot opposite:

AQxxx, xx, Kxx, Qxx
Qxxxx, QJx, Kx, Axx
xxxxx, QJx, KJ, Axx
AQxxx, xx, xxx, Axx
Axxxxx, xx, xx, Axx

Feel free to add any other hands you think might cause issues for the approach you choose.

[mgoetze]

Hard to see myself stopping below slam anyway so I think I'll just bid 6♣, the exact meaning of which should be crystal clear.

[Zelandakh]

mgoetze, on 2016-February-27, 05:23, said:

Hard to see myself stopping below slam anyway so I think I'll just bid 6♣, the exact meaning of which should be crystal clear.

You may be clear on the meaning but are you certain you will get more information this way than starting with 5♣ and then following up with 6♣ or 6♠? 5♣ and 6♣ are the 2 obvious candidates here so it is a matter of how we think partner will continue on the critical hands as to which approach will work out best.

[mgoetze]

Zelandakh, on 2016-February-27, 07:22, said:

You may be clear on the meaning but are you certain you will get more information this way

I don't expect to get any information, I expect partner to have enough information to place the contract. Look at the hands Cyberyeti is worried about... 4 out of 5 have ♣A. Obviously partner should know to stay away from grand with those when I have a club void. On the other hand, with no club wastage partner must have enough for 4♠ for grand to be at least decent, if not excellent. What further information do you want?

[Cyberyeti]

mgoetze, on 2016-February-27, 09:26, said:

I don't expect to get any information, I expect partner to have enough information to place the contract. Look at the hands Cyberyeti is worried about... 4 out of 5 have ♣A. Obviously partner should know to stay away from grand with those when I have a club void. On the other hand, with no club wastage partner must have enough for 4♠ for grand to be at least decent, if not excellent. What further information do you want?

Axxxx, QJx, KJ, xxx is a pretty poor grand (with the preempt where it is) where AQxxx, xx, Kxx, Hxx is great, is partner supposed to know you have ♠KJxx rather than KQxx.

Which spade honours he has would be nice.

[ggwhiz]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-February-27, 05:10, said:

You do play voidwood, but normally only on a jump so the exact meaning of 5♣ is not crystal clear.

Murky waters for sure but 5♣ followed by 6♣ should find out about the diamond King and if it's there 6♥ would be begging for a 7♠ bid and at least transfer responsibility. Only a former partner would pass 6♥.

[Cyberyeti]

ggwhiz, on 2016-February-27, 10:00, said:

Murky waters for sure but 5♣ followed by 6♣ should find out about the diamond King and if it's there 6♥ would be begging for a 7♠ bid and at least transfer responsibility. Only a former partner would pass 6♥.

Partner is not going to pass 6♥, but how does he know how many spade honours you need ?

If you could bid 5♣ then follow up with 5N GSF over 5♦ that would be ideal, but many people don't play that.

Also can partner with a 6313 bid 5♦ with a stiff here ? if so this can lead to a grand that needs a diamond finesse that probably won't work.

[mgoetze]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-February-27, 09:40, said:

Axxxx, QJx, KJ, xxx is a pretty poor grand (with the preempt where it is)

Isn't the preempt exactly where you want it to be? Ace and finesse puts you at 60.9% already. If the x's happen to be A98xx allowing you to pick up 0-4, it's 72.4%.

Obviously on this hand you want to be playing 5♣ as exclusion KCB, but I don't think you want to do that on the majority of hands, so that shouldn't be the meaning of 5♣. 5♠ as trump quality ask? Not what I would think it is here but maybe it wouldn't be ridiculous.

I don't see how you're going to find out what you want to know with standardish/undiscussed methods, so just paint as clear a picture as possible for partner and hope he does the right thing.

[Cyberyeti]

mgoetze, on 2016-February-27, 10:44, said:

Isn't the preempt exactly where you want it to be? Ace and finesse puts you at 60.9% already. If the x's happen to be A98xx allowing you to pick up 0-4, it's 72.4%.

Err, no, you're finessing through the preempter which is not what you want, W preempted, N has the KJ

[rmnka447]

4 ♠ is limited by the bottom limit for hands where South would bid 4 ♣ over the double.

If partner finds a 4 ♣ bid I'm thinking of 6 ♠ as the minimum contract and worrying more about how to find if 7 ♠ is there.

After a 4 ♠ bid, I'm more worried initially about staying out of bad 6 ♠ contracts than bidding a Grand. Partner can be bidding 4 ♠ on some pretty modest values especially with lots of ♠.

So I'm starting with 5 ♣ which IMO ought to agree ♠ and show a ♣ control. Yes, it is a bit ambiguous, but the main concern is whether there are 2 ♦ losers, or, possibly a ♠ and ♦ loser. If partner can find a 5 ♦ control bid, then at least 6 ♠ is a good bet and now my thoughts would turn toward a possible 7 ♠ grand. If partner bids 5 ♠ over 5 ♣, I sit. With presumably 7+ ♣ with RHO, it seems like vacant places make any ♦ finesse something like 2/1 to fail.

After a 5 ♦ control bid, I think I'm continuing with 5 ♥ followed by 6 ♥ over 5 ♠. Over 5 ♦, I think 5 NT is still GSF, when you can count 13 tricks if partner has ♠ AQ. 5 ♥/6 ♥ is a more subtle grand slam try. With 5 ♦ only implying a 2nd round control possibly a stiff, it suggests some uncertainty about a 13th trick, but implies 1st round controls in the side suits and the ♥ K. I think it also implies a high ♠ honor. With ♠ Qxxx(x..) and another possible loser, I think you settle for 6 ♠. With ♠ Jxxx(x..), I don't think you can try for 7 after partner bids only 4 ♠. So, I think it asks partner to use his/her judgement when holding a stiff and the missing high ♠ honors.

[daffydoc]

preemts work - while i would try 5C and bid 5NT over 5D I think that trying for 7 is ok but with such limited room most likely will end in 6 as unless i pin point AQ spades and diamond K with the above calls it will be difficult to bid an accurate 7. daffydoc

[fourdad]

It usually simplifies things to break it down to points. The X shows 16+ hence the 4S bid shows a bout 10 and 5+ spades (as the TOX of the minor preempt does not promise 4 spades.)
The X'lers hand now values at 22 so I just bid 6S.

[Cyberyeti]

fourdad, on 2016-February-28, 06:06, said:

It usually simplifies things to break it down to points. The X shows 16+ hence the 4S bid shows a bout 10 and 5+ spades (as the TOX of the minor preempt does not promise 4 spades.)
The X'lers hand now values at 22 so I just bid 6S.

Sorry, on which planet does the X show 16+. I would double every day on KQxx, KQxx, QJ10x, x and I suspect anybody with a clue would also.

[fourdad]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-February-28, 07:22, said:

Sorry, on which planet does the X show 16+. I would double every day on KQxx, KQxx, QJ10x, x and I suspect anybody with a clue would also.

and I would value that hand as 16....I was not referring to HCP.
I though Brits had more class!

[Cyberyeti]

fourdad, on 2016-February-28, 08:00, said:

and I would value that hand as 16....I was not referring to HCP.
I though Brits had more class!

Don't call them points then if that's not what you mean. A few beginners do restrict some takeout doubles to 16+ HCP which was what I thought you meant.

[wank]

just bid 6c. partner won't bid 7 without aq q k. you'll miss 7 opposite something like aqxxx xx kxx xxx but it's the best you can do. 5c followed by 5nt over 5d isn't gsf or exclusion or anything useful.

fourdad 4s doesn't guaranteed 5 spades. if partner's 4333 or 44 in spades and clubs unsuitable for no-trumps he'll bid 4s and play a potential 4-3 fit, knowing he's getting forced in the short hand.

as for 16+ for a double, evidently you're using some bizarre evaluation method. as cyberyeti says it just causes confusion if you talk about points when you're using the fourdad shape symmetric scale. if you think your hand is worth as much as say a 16 point strong no-trump on average you're mistaken.

[Cyberyeti]

wank, on 2016-February-28, 09:24, said:

just bid 6c. partner won't bid 7 without aq q k. you'll miss 7 opposite something like aqxxx xx kxx xxx but it's the best you can do. 5c followed by 5nt over isn't gsf or exclusion or anything useful.

fourdad 4s doesn't guaranteed 5 spades. if partner's 4333 or 44 in spades and clubs unsuitable for no-trumps he'll bid 4s and play a potential 4-3 fit, knowing he's getting forced in the short hand.

What do you think 3♣-X-P-4♣-P-4♥-P-4♠ means, is this a cue or is this the 4333/4234 ? I think it's playable as either, but if you play it as the 4 card spades then 4♠ shows 5, it's definitely 5+ more often than 4 anyway.

Partner actually fell off the planet, but I don't think it's clear cut what the right action is here. The hand opposite is Q10xxx, QJx, Kx, Axx so 6♠ is cold.

[wank]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-February-28, 09:59, said:

What do you think 3♣-X-P-4♣-P-4♥-P-4♠ means, is this a cue or is this the 4333/4234 ? I think it's playable as either, but if you play it as the 4 card spades then 4♠ shows 5, it's definitely 5+ more often than 4 anyway.

Partner actually fell off the planet, but I don't think it's clear cut what the right action is here. The hand opposite is Q10xxx, QJx, Kx, Axx so 6♠ is cold.

that would show spades and diamonds. 4s doesn't need 5 - it just needs to have no other reasonable contracts to offer, e.g. 4234 12 count with clubs too bad for 3nt.

[Caitlynne]

I am bidding 5C as a general force.

If partner signs off with 5S, I will simply continue with 6C. Now, with good trumps (e.g., the first hand), partner should show a card along the way to 6S and, if partner does bid 5D, you can bid 7S.

[mgoetze]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-February-28, 09:59, said:

The hand opposite is Q10xxx, QJx, Kx, Axx so 6♠ is cold.

And what do you do with that hand when partner bids 6♣? Seems good to me.