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Is such free psychic bid lawful?

#1 User is offline   lycier 

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Posted 2015-December-06, 05:16

Hi Moderators :
I have a puzzled question and need your help.


Result :4♥N-1

How would you rule?
I mean if South free psychic bid is lawful,I will learn a good artful bidding method,otherwise I should give it up.

Thanks

Lycier
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#2 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-December-06, 05:43

This is called a "baby psyche" and is perfectly legal.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#3 User is offline   RMB1 

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Posted 2015-December-06, 06:48

If opener is not allowed (systemically) to bid above 3♥ then the rebids to 2♠ might be seen as psychic control. This might make 2♠ psyche illegal.
Robin

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#4 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2015-December-06, 07:18

The 2♠ call is perfectly legal.

West's failure to take action is an egregious error.
Alderaan delenda est
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#5 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2015-December-06, 07:21

hrothgar, what would you propose W does? (TOX of 4H?)

ahydra
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#6 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2015-December-06, 07:28

R/S advocated that X be a penalty double (showing 5 spades), while other people on the forums think it should just be a takeout of 2H (treating 2S as a raise, essentially). Either way, that seems OK on west. I don't like 3S on only AJTxx, since sometimes S will have actual spades.
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#7 User is offline   lycier 

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Posted 2015-December-06, 09:33

So many replies,thanks to everyonePosted Image

 Vampyr, on 2015-December-06, 05:43, said:

This is called a "baby psyche" and is perfectly legal.


Now I got it,thank you very much.
While I told many of my club members including some experts,they had some different opinions.
Some experts of our country thought that in fact it have been not allowed in most of domestic event unless it is at high level match.If play against foreign players,of course,it is ok because that is a little of matters of foreign director,have nothing to do with the directors of our country.lol...Posted Image

It is first time for us to hear of the concept of "baby psyche".
Alway learning from you.
Thank you, and again.
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#8 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2015-December-06, 09:35

 ahydra, on 2015-December-06, 07:21, said:

hrothgar, what would you propose W does? (TOX of 4H?)

ahydra


X (Which I play as a penalty double of Spades)
Alderaan delenda est
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#9 User is offline   lycier 

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Posted 2015-December-06, 09:39

BBF is really a nice place.Posted Image
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#10 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2015-December-06, 09:42

I have done such a psyche lots of times and had it done against me many times.
Is easy to defend against you need 2♠ X to be penalty and you will expose psyche

If your double is takeout your letting people walk all over you
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#11 User is offline   StevenG 

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Posted 2015-December-06, 10:14

 steve2005, on 2015-December-06, 09:42, said:

I have done such a psyche lots of times

Does your partner know?
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#12 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2015-December-06, 11:00

 StevenG, on 2015-December-06, 10:14, said:

Does your partner know?

no often we get bad results if she raise lol
Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#13 User is offline   lycier 

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Posted 2015-December-06, 17:07

 RMB1, on 2015-December-06, 06:48, said:

If opener is not allowed (systemically) to bid above 3♥ then the rebids to 2♠ might be seen as psychic control. This might make 2♠ psyche illegal.


For me,opener is allowed (systemically) to bid above 3♥,as a part of Ogust exptension,3♠= 3-card support with two top card plus one small card in it.
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#14 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-December-06, 17:17

 steve2005, on 2015-December-06, 09:42, said:

I have done such a psyche lots of times and had it done against me many times.
Is easy to defend against you need 2♠ X to be penalty and you will expose psyche


This applies on the 1-level too, where typically X shows 4 spades and 2♠ shows 5. And if it goes 1♥-(X)-1♠, double is often used here also to expose the psyche.
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#15 User is offline   BudH 

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Posted 2015-December-06, 17:53

 hrothgar, on 2015-December-06, 07:18, said:

The 2♠ call is perfectly legal.

West's failure to take action is an egregious error.


At none vulnerable, East with the heart shortness needs to get in there with a takeout double, despite bare minimum values and having only three spades.

Then, if South bids his baby 2♠ psyche, West can double exposing the psyche.
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#16 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2015-December-07, 03:29

 lycier, on 2015-December-06, 17:07, said:

For me,opener is allowed (systemically) to bid above 3♥,as a part of Ogust exptension,3♠= 3-card support with two top card plus one small card in it.

If this is their agreement then it is possibly a psyche control. I mean, if opener needs HHx of spades to bypass 3♥ then it is fairly riskfree. And if
2♥-2♠
3♠-4♥
is to play then it is riskfree.

Possibly the 2♠ needs to be explained as "asking bid, could be natural or a trial bid for 4♥ or 3NT, or a baby psyche" or some such.

Anyway, I don't think it is trivial for EW to get this auction right. East could double 2♥ but it is borderline. W could double 2♠ if it shows this hand but that require agreements.

Probably W would have doubled 2♠ if it had been disclosed as an asking bid.
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#17 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2015-December-07, 05:35

 helene_t, on 2015-December-07, 03:29, said:

If this is their agreement then it is possibly a psyche control. I mean, if opener needs HHx of spades to bypass 3♥ then it is fairly riskfree. And if
2♥-2♠
3♠-4♥
is to play then it is riskfree.

This hardly risk free. Your aiming to get to 3♥. 4♥ is 1 higher and more likely to get doubled.



Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#18 User is offline   lycier 

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Posted 2015-December-07, 06:29

 helene_t, on 2015-December-07, 03:29, said:


Possibly the 2♠ needs to be explained as "asking bid, could be natural or a trial bid for 4♥ or 3NT, or a baby psyche" or some such.



Helene_t, you said " asking bid ,could be natural or a trial bid for 4♥ or 3NT, or a baby psyche" or some such." just like " Brown Sticker "ish explanations,isn't it?Posted Image
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#19 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2015-December-07, 07:20

 steve2005, on 2015-December-07, 05:35, said:

This hardly risk free. Your aiming to get to 3♥. 4♥ is 1 higher and more likely to get doubled.

How often does a weak 2♥ opening have ♠HHx?

If 3♥ is only bypassed when the 2♥ opener has ♠HHx (i.e. practically never) and if any rebid in hearts by responder is a sign-off then I would say that 2♠ is a controlled psyche.

Rik
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#20 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2015-December-07, 08:39

 Trinidad, on 2015-December-07, 07:20, said:

How often does a weak 2♥ opening have ♠HHx?

If 3♥ is only bypassed when the 2♥ opener has ♠HHx (i.e. practically never) and if any rebid in hearts by responder is a sign-off then I would say that 2♠ is a controlled psyche.

Rik

Holding ♠HHx has never, and shall never prevent me from opening (weak) 2♥ if the heart suit and hand strength as such is suitable.

"practically never" must be a huge exaggeration.
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