[manudude03]

MPs scoring, would you open these hands in 4th seat?

Hand 1:

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Hand 2:

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edit: opening style is pretty much down the middle, partner would pass balanced 11 counts, but open unbalanced 11s.

[TIE53]

I'd open 2♠ on hand one. I'd pass hand two, especially vulnerable.

[Tramticket]

Yes, hand 1 is just about worth 2S. Hand 2 is an easy pass.

[Cyberyeti]

Hand 1, if I open, 2♠ is obvious, but not sure I do, for us should be a little better than this in both hand and suit.

Second hand is an easy opener for me (I would open this in any seat) 1♣.

[eagles123]

i can easily see bidding being right on the 2nd I think it's a closer decision than the above posters give it credit for

[BillPatch]

I would open the first hand 1♠, I prefer to promise more for the fourth hand weak 2, and if a misfit 1 is high enough. Also, it meets the rule of 15, and like Edgar Kaplan, I like to play them. So, before he got this dummy, did my partner.

The second hand is a 1♣, WTP?, in all seats.

[Stephen Tu]

 BillPatch, on 2015-August-18, 16:06, said:

I would open the first hand 1♠, I prefer to promise more for the fourth hand weak 2, and if a misfit 1 is high enough.

I don't follow your logic here. There is a style where 4th seat weak 2 shows more of an intermediate hand (where p-p-p-2s is *stronger* than p-p-p-1s-p-1nt-p-2s), but I don't think that's what you meant? But your idea that you will stay in 1 opposite a misfit is strange, because partner will always be bidding something, and you are going to bid 2s anyway. (You aren't passing 1nt are you?).

[mikeh]

I pass both hands.

In most of my partnerships a 4th seat weak 2 shows a minimum range opening bid with a fair to good suit. I lack either quality.

I would open only if someone had stolen my partner's bidding box......opening has a lot more going for it when partner isn't allowed to bid. As it is, partner rates to hold a stronger hand, in hcp, than I do and may not appreciate turning a pass-out into a minus at the 3 or 4 level.

On the second one, at least our hand may be as strong as partner's but we have very bad honour location, and a rebid issue over almost anything partner bids, even if the opps stay out.

If he bids 1♦ we bid 1♠, I assume, and we have now bid our two best suits, in which we hold a grand total of 3 hcp.

If he bids 1♥, we have to pass, and now we could be in a silly 4-3 fit, and could be missing a 4-4 spade fit.

If he bids 1N, we are probably not going to like seeing a diamond lead, unless we decide to rebid (!) our bad 5 card suit.

There seem to be a lot of ways to get to a bad contract if we open.

Having said that, on both hands one may well end up in a good position on any given layout, so these are legitimate questions. I suspect one's views depend to some degree on whether one is a glass half empty or glass half full kind of bidder.

I expect to be in the small minority here, since BBF posters tend to like bidding, at least here.

Btw, the notion that the second hand is a wtp 1♣ in all seats doesn't appeal to me in the least. It reminds me of a saying I heard many years ago when I used to ride motorcycles: there are old motorcyclists, there are bold motorcyclists, but there are no old, bold motorcyclists

Opening 1♣ in 1st or 2nd red as a wtp action is 'bold', unless one is playing something like EHAA, which deservedly lost its limited popularity many years ago due to all the horrible results it engendered.

[BillPatch]

 Stephen Tu, on 2015-August-18, 16:40, said:

I don't follow your logic here. There is a style where 4th seat weak 2 shows more of an intermediate hand (where p-p-p-2s is *stronger* than p-p-p-1s-p-1nt-p-2s), but I don't think that's what you meant? But your idea that you will stay in 1 opposite a misfit is strange, because partner will always be bidding something, and you are going to bid 2s anyway. (You aren't passing 1nt are you?).

I am hoping very hard that partner can raise, or LHO will intervene; because, heaven help me, I will pass 1NT. There, report me to the Society of Prevention of Cruelty to Partners.

You can see why I frequent the partnership desk, and it's lonely.

[mike777]

depends on your opening style in second seat.


easy pass with both if you open light..


I would open if we open sound.

[BillPatch]

More seriously, since there are 31 HCP out, so dealer should have enough points to overcall with a passed hand if he has a biddable five card red suit, and with my shortness and weakness in both red suits he should act about half of the time.

So, with 7 spades outstanding, I expect we will have 3+ support about 34% of the time and expect to usually make 9 tricks, often playing in two after a single raise or Drury. Another 33% of the time, dealer will intervene, usually with an overcall, and we rate to have 8 tricks in our suit because we will usually have the 6-2 fit in the boss suit. I expect that we will have a plus score at least 90% of the 34% when partner has support, plus 65% of the time RHO enters the bidding, and 55% of the 2% when 3rd hand intervenes over partner's 1NT response. Since partner rates to have on average 10-11 points if RHO passes, I expect partner to make 1NT or two of a red suit 10% of the time for the remaining 30%.

Since calculating the sum we are plus slightly over 56%, so 1♠ is percentage over pass out. Sometimes in the 30% of the time partner plays the contract he will listen to the logic in the post mortem. Other times we will recover on the other boards, and partner tends to forget my cruelty on this board. Otherwise, maybe I can find a stranger at the partnership desk.

[rmnka447]

I'm passing both also.

Like mikeh, a 2 ♠ bid in 4th seat usually shows a decent opener with a good 6 card suit for me.

At MPs, I'd expect a pass out in both these hands to result in average or near average either way most of the time.

[mike777]

none of the above negates how you open in second seat..


with pass of sound opener you still may have good part score or even game

if light easy pass

[BillPatch]

 mikeh, on 2015-August-18, 16:56, said:

I pass both hands.

In most of my partnerships a 4th seat weak 2 shows a minimum range opening bid with a fair to good suit. I lack either quality.

I would open only if someone had stolen my partner's bidding box......opening has a lot more going for it when partner isn't allowed to bid. As it is, partner rates to hold a stronger hand, in hcp, than I do and may not appreciate turning a pass-out into a minus at the 3 or 4 level.

I was trained as an engineer and my calculations in my previous post indicates that approx. 55% of time we will go plus if I open 1♠ even if system dictates a pass if partner doesn't raise. See previous post in this thread.

 mikeh, on 2015-August-18, 16:56, said:

On the second one, at least our hand may be as strong as partner's but we have very bad honour location, and a rebid issue over almost anything partner bids, even if the opps stay out.

If he bids 1♦ we bid 1♠, I assume, and we have now bid our two best suits, in which we hold a grand total of 3 hcp.

If he bids 1♥, we have to pass, and now we could be in a silly 4-3 fit, and could be missing a 4-4 spade fit.

If he bids 1N, we are probably not going to like seeing a diamond lead, unless we decide to rebid (!) our bad 5 card suit.

There seem to be a lot of ways to get to a bad contract if we open....

On the other hand we have good intermediates, and 2 1/2 quick tricks, above average for a minimum opening bid in first position. Marty Bergen rates the hand an opening according to the rule of 20 after adding 1 point for the two tens in 3 card or longer suits with higher honors. Kaplan rated it a 13.10 on his Kaplan and Rubens points, the equivalent of about 14 goren points. Since it has 1/2 quick trick more than the minimum 2 QT he might upgrade this one point to the minimum 14 required for one of a minor in KS. I don't think it's worth another point upgrade for the spade suit because the spade suit is horrid. According to Ron Klinger even without the good intermediates this is an opening bid--at equal vulnerability he opens according to the rule of 21 1/2 with 10 hcp + 9 cards in two longest suits + 2 1/2 QTs.
According to modern styles these authorities are not light openers. Marty Bergen probably opens about 1/10 of a point below traditional BWS standards, Klinger .6 point.

By the way I play Walsh so if partner responds 1♦ he promises either reversing values or no biddable 4 card major. My rebid of one spade promises an unbalanced hand with at least 5 clubs. If we are unlucky partner will have a balanced hand with 11 hcp and a ♥ stopper and jump to 2NT, if he has 12 HCPs it is less likely we are too high at 2NT. Similarly if he rebids one NT with 8 or 9 hcp we are slightly outgunned, only if he has 10 hcp do we have the strength advantage 20-20 hcp but we have at least 3 connected tens in longish suits.

If partner responds 1♥ with partner's expected value of 10 hcp and our 10 hcp and the majority of the trumps and 95% chance of a ruffing trick in the short hand we have a very good chance of a plus score if they leave us in that contract, even if we end up in a 4-3 fit at this level. Even if we miss 4-4 spades we will still beat pass out if we're plus. If they intervene with a TO double we can explore the spade fit at the one level. More likely they will balance in diamonds, to which we will raise to 2♥ which is still likely plus, If they go to three diamonds responder will look at his lengths and values in the red suits and be able to make an informed decision based on opener's first round pass. The extra 1/2 quick trick should compensate for the diamond shortness in opener.

If partner responds 1♠ we can again pass if they fail to interfere, with even higher assurance of a plus score. By the law of total tricks we are legal to at least the 2 level if responder has 4, unless there are extra trumps, we again can defend at the three level, with high chance of a plus score.

If partner responds 1NT we know he lacks a biddable major suit and presumably lacks 5 card minor, thus a 99% chance of an 8 card club fit. Opener's rebid of 2 clubs is automatic. Responder again is captain, although if they try spades opener can suggest a penalty double at the 2 level.

If responder shows LR strength, no biddable majors, and 4 clubs by a 2♣ raise and they fail to compete we have reached a good part score with a low chance of game and again will pass. We have at least a 9 card fit so we should tend to bid to the three level and defend at the three level if they overcall the level. A penalty double at the three level is very possible.

If responder makes a weak jump raise, we can hope to make it. Despite the 10 trump if they interfere it may be best to defend.

If responder makes a 2NT response it is probably best to retreat to the implied club fit.

Opening in first or second seat with such an unbalanced hand raises more complex issues. Since we have minimum values for NT we again maybe understrength if he raises in NT, and again if he has a minimum we may be slightly an underdog. Since a possible pass out is unlikely on the duplicated boards, an absolute plus or minus doesn't matter, just the relative scores. Since we must respect the forces if responder is unlimited there is a much better chance we will get too high when responder has a limit NT response or rebid, we have slightly more than a minimum if we find an 8 card fit in spades, hearts, or clubs. Our singleton means that we have a probable game if partner also has a 7 losing trick count. Unless partner has three spade honors, the spade game will not usually make if spades do not split 3-2 if we have exactly a 4-4 fit. Another way of winning is if the defending bidders play in NT. Opening leader will know that opener's better minor is probably clubs, and that he probably has no 5 card suit other than clubs. This will often stop a opening diamond lead, and provide key info for later in the defense when dummy is visible.

[BillPatch]

Of the three authorities I cited Marty Bergen, although his opening strength style is currently middle of the road, his preemptive style is eccentricly weaker than EHAA and he retired from active bridge competition about eight years ago when his regular partner Larry Cohen decide to try another partner. So he's not going to be an old, bold, active bridge player.

[rhm]

I admit I am surprised.

Let's start with hand 2:

This is mainly an exercise in hand evaluation.
I would open this hand in any seat at any vulnerability and any form of scoring.

Anyone who considers this a 10 HCP hand should take a a basic class in hand evaluation.
Note that the Rubens Kaplan hand evaluator puts the value of the hand at 13.1

In fourth seat how can you pass an opening hand with spades at matchpoints?

With regard to hand one, we have less points.
But all indications are we have roughly half the deck and we do have the spades.
How likely is it that they can outbid us?
How can it be right to pass this out at matchpoints?.

This has nothing to do with the question whether we open light or sound.
No successful matchpoint player would pass these hands in any seat.

Rainer Herrmann

[WellSpyder]

I gave the first hand a lot more consideration than the second, so I think I'll try a Nigel-style response:

Hand 1 1♠ = 10, Pass = 10, 2♠ = 9
Hand 2 Pass = 10, 1♣ = 6

[gnasher]

I'd open both of them.

The first hand is what a 4th seat 2♠ opening should look like - a hand where you hope to make eight tricks opposite partner's expected 10-count, you don't want partner to investigate game, and you don't want to give the opponents the space to find out whether they should be competing to the three-level. If you play it that way, it becomes a straightforward question of how likely you are to make 2♠. If you play 2♠ as a more constructive bid than that, I suppose you have a problem, but it's a problem of your own making.

The second hand just looks like an opening bid to me. I don't understand Mike's concerns about playing in 1♥ or 1NT, if that's what happens. I'd expect both contracts to make more often than not.

[MrAce]

I would open 2nd hand for sure.
1st hand I want to open too but 2sp is not available for me, it shows better than this. So if I open 2nd hand it will have to be 1 sp, playing drury I have no problem opening it at 1 level.

[BillPatch]

There is a reason that I can afford to save both the fourth seat weak two and the opener's rebid of the major one bid for better hands without alienating too many partners stuck in bad contracts after opening a marginal opener 9 or 10 points is that it is relatively rare that none of the four hands has the strength of a normal opener. In fact the relative frequency of weak passing hands is so high that the expected value of the fourth hand is 15 hcp, and the 15-17 range NT is higher frequency than 12-14.

So there must be another explanation as to why I can't keep partners.

I think it is because I overanalyze the game and have no sense of humor. Asperger's syndrome, perhaps.

My ex-partners think I am a Life Platzer.

(Mr. Carmichael, Sr., father of great bridge pro Tom Carmichael, informed me that his children refer to him as "Life Platzer" in their e-mails.