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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#17461 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 10:55

View PostPeterAlan, on 2021-January-07, 09:55, said:

Quite apart from anything else, he's only referring to "an orderly transition on January 20th" (my emphasis), which hardly gets the job done properly (as we've already been seeing with, for example, Defense and Budget Management).

What are the chances of Biden turning out to be President 47?


Looks as if the House and Senate have adjourned which makes impeachment very unlikely

Not usre if there are enough Trump cabinet officials left to invoke the 25th
Guess we might get lucky and a Secret Service agent pops Trump if he tries to nuke Bristol or some such, but I suspect that we're stuck with Trump for another two weeks
Alderaan delenda est
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#17462 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 11:13

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-January-06, 17:21, said:

I am hoping people like McConnell understand that this is no longer simply politics. The president at the moment is still Donald Trump, and as such is commander-in-chief of the military. There must have been a reason to put in sycophants in the DOD - perhaps so there could be no national guard responses?


It seems we now know why Trump placed his flunkies into the DOD. This must certainly mean these men were co-conspirators in this attempted sedition.

Marcy Wheeler wrote this about yesterday's insurrection - it is difficult to argue with her conclusions:



Quote

The DOD refusal to honor a request from Mayor Muriel Bowser, made before the coup attempt started, to deploy the National Guard to DC to help makes it clear (as did Trump and Bill Barr’s deployment of DOD troops over the summer) that DC cannot be left anymore without its own defense. As many people have noted, this provides a clear reason, independent of the number of Senators or the existence of a largely-Black city without full franchise, that DC should become a state.

Similarly, the refusal of DC cops, including Capitol Police, to treat these terrorists as terrorists demonstrates why people have called to “defund” the police. It’s not denial that we need police. It’s a recognition that, right now, police forces are often filled with extremists who sympathize with people like the terrorists who stormed the Capitol. There needs to be a priority on cleansing police forces of such extremists, or they will become an armed force working against democracy again.




This post has been edited by Winstonm: 2021-January-07, 11:19

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#17463 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 11:43

View Postkenberg, on 2021-January-07, 07:34, said:

He started this. If Donald Trump now wishes to cooperate in a peaceful transfer of the presidency to Joe Biden, he needs to be unequivocal. There is very good reason to believe that he plans no such thing, and this statement does not help at all.

What difference would it make? He's gone back on dozens of statements he's made. Even if he described the exact steps he's going to take out the door, I wouldn't take it at face value. He's a bald-faced liar.

#17464 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 11:46

BTW, I actually think there will be a peaceful transition on Jan 20, because Trump will resign on Jan 19 so that Pence becomes President and can grant a proactive pardon for the crimes he's likely to be prosecuted for.

#17465 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 12:07

View PostPeterAlan, on 2021-January-07, 09:55, said:

Quite apart from anything else, he's only referring to "an orderly transition on January 20th" (my emphasis), which hardly gets the job done properly (as we've already been seeing with, for example, Defense and Budget Management).

What are the chances of Biden turning out to be President 47?


Only if he is re-elected. Posted Image

PS: Congratulations to Warnock and Ossoff for turning Georgia and the U.S. Senate Democratic.

This post has been edited by Winstonm: 2021-January-07, 12:10

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#17466 User is offline   PassedOut 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 14:05

I particularly liked these observations by John Kelley in this post article: Aides weigh resignations, removal options as Trump rages against perceived betrayals

Quote

John F. Kelly, another former White House chief of staff who has shied away from rebuking Trump over other transgressions, suggested that the president’s leadership was wanting.

“Three men made comments today, two of them very helpful and meaningful, and should be remembered,” Kelly said. Senate Majority Leader Mitch “McConnell’s remarks this afternoon, just before the riots, were, I think, words for the ages — and not from a politician, but from a statesman. President-elect Biden’s were presidential and right to the heart of what we have to do to heal ourselves.”

Kelly also seemed to voice regret about Trump’s election.

“We need to look infinitely harder at who we elect to any office in our land — at the office seeker’s character, at their morals, at their ethical record, their integrity, their honesty, their flaws, what they have said about women, and minorities, why they are seeking office in the first place, and only then consider the policies they espouse,” Kelly said.

Trump's lack of character was evident long before his election in 2016. His attempts to destroy our country out of rage for his rejection by responsible voters was predictable. In fact, his niece did predict it. I'm so looking forward to the end of this nightmare for our country.

I don't mind saying that I don't feel kindly toward the folks who voted for him, bringing this down on the US.
The growth of wisdom may be gauged exactly by the diminution of ill temper. — Friedrich Nietzsche
The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists — that is why they invented hell. — Bertrand Russell
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#17467 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 14:35

View PostZelandakh, on 2021-January-07, 02:12, said:

Is this no longer US Law? I have not even heard this mentioned yet in the coverage but it seems pretty clear that this passes the 'imminent lawless action' test.


Yes it is, and several former former US Attorneys and former high ranking members of the DOJ have discussed this on MSNBC and CNN. At least 2 current US Attorneys appointed by Trump have indicated that they will indict anybody that is identified from their jurisdictions that traveled to Washington DC and occupied the Capitol building before they are replaced.
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#17468 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 14:44

View Postbarmar, on 2021-January-07, 11:46, said:

BTW, I actually think there will be a peaceful transition on Jan 20, because Trump will resign on Jan 19 so that Pence becomes President and can grant a proactive pardon for the crimes he's likely to be prosecuted for.

After the Manchurian President threw the VP under the bus for not tossing out the electoral votes and appointing the Grifter as president, and then putting his family in danger who were at the Capitol building, I think that is exceedingly unlikely compared to just last week. The Manchurian President has turned his stooges against Pence (did you read where Pence's Chief of Staff was barred from entering the White House) so without those stooges, Pence has no political future.

The only scenario I see working out for the Grifter in Chief is that he promises his 100% support for a Pence 2024 campaign in exchange for a pardon, but besides being a felony, can Pence trust the Grifter?
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#17469 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 14:52

View Posthrothgar, on 2021-January-07, 10:55, said:

Looks as if the House and Senate have adjourned which makes impeachment very unlikely

Not usre if there are enough Trump cabinet officials left to invoke the 25th
Guess we might get lucky and a Secret Service agent pops Trump if he tries to nuke Bristol or some such, but I suspect that we're stuck with Trump for another two weeks


That brings up a theoretical question. Do the Manchurian President's "acting" secretaries of various departments get to vote on 25th Amendment motions? They haven't been nominated and confirmed by the Senate. Or could the Manchurian President fire all the cabinet secretaries and appoint his personal "acting" secretaries before they can vote to remove him.
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#17470 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 14:56

I take what I said above back.
If a week is a long time in politics, he can probably shake the world with more than 10 days left to him.
Non legit hoc
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#17471 User is offline   PeterAlan 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 15:32

View Postjohnu, on 2021-January-07, 14:44, said:

... can Pence trust the Grifter?

That one's easy: no-one can.

I liked a comment someone added to a WaPo article: impeachment should be very quick; House in the morning, Senate in the afternoon - the Republicans have already made clear that they don't need any witnesses at an impeachment.
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#17472 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 16:22

https://www.timeandd...leaves%20office
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#17473 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 18:51

It has not been much more than 24 hours since Donald Trump was urging his followers toward the capitol. A number of our representatives from both parties have now spoken out in dismay. Donald Trump has said nothing of significance. Ok, that's that, his silence speaks volumes.

We must now assume that Donald Trump has no intention of behaving responsibly for the remainder of his term. That has always been clear to me, but there is now no room for doubt by anyone.

Our representatives and yes, our military leaders must be prepared for trouble. Those who were expected to keep order yesterday did not do so, they now say, in one form or another, "Gee, who would have thought that would happen? ". Well, it was their job.

We must not make this mistake again.

The best route? I don't claim to know. But it is as plain as anything can be that we must be prepared for the worst. It is no longer rationally possible to say "Oh, surely he wouldn't do that" no matter what is put in for "that". Donald Trump might do anything. He knows no limits.

Tough job, yes, but it's here. I hope enough of our representatives and other leaders step up.
Ken
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#17474 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 20:45

https://www.theonion...-u-s-1819565829

Quote

BELGRADE–Serbian president Vojislav Kostunica deployed more than 30,000 peacekeeping troops to the U.S. Monday, pledging full support to the troubled North American nation as it struggles to establish democracy.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#17475 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 21:12

WSJ Editorial Board said:

If Mr. Trump wants to avoid a second impeachment, his best path would be to take personal responsibility and resign. This would be the cleanest solution since it would immediately turn presidential duties over to Mr. Pence. And it would give Mr. Trump agency, a la Richard Nixon, over his own fate.

This might also stem the flood of White House and Cabinet resignations that are understandable as acts of conscience but could leave the government dangerously unmanned. Robert O’Brien, the national security adviser, in particular should stay at his post.

We know an act of grace by Mr. Trump isn’t likely. In any case this week has probably finished him as a serious political figure. He has cost Republicans the House, the White House, and now the Senate. Worse, he has betrayed his loyal supporters by lying to them about the election and the ability of Congress and Mr. Pence to overturn it. He has refused to accept the basic bargain of democracy, which is to accept the result, win or lose.

It is best for everyone, himself included, if he goes away quietly.

If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#17476 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 21:32

View Postjohnu, on 2021-January-07, 14:35, said:

Yes it is, and several former former US Attorneys and former high ranking members of the DOJ have discussed this on MSNBC and CNN. At least 2 current US Attorneys appointed by Trump have indicated that they will indict anybody that is identified from their jurisdictions that traveled to Washington DC and occupied the Capitol building before they are replaced.

I do not get MSNBC here but I had been watching a fair amount of CNN without seeing any serious discussion about legal liability of Trump, Giuliani, etc; much talk about the lack of arrests on the day itself, yes, but not a single mention of any possible indictments under 18 USC Code 2101 or related laws.
(-: Zel :-)
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#17477 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 22:32

View PostZelandakh, on 2021-January-07, 21:32, said:

I do not get MSNBC here but I had been watching a fair amount of CNN without seeing any serious discussion about legal liability of Trump, Giuliani, etc; much talk about the lack of arrests on the day itself, yes, but not a single mention of any possible indictments under 18 USC Code 2101 or related laws.

I don't watch a lot of CNN but I saw something about indictments very late night/early morning in a segment I watched. I'm not sure why they didn't give it more coverage, especially since a number of US Attorneys have come out and said that they will prosecute anybody from their jurisdictions. MSNBC has had many segments about US Attorneys prosecuting these domestic terrorists and what to expect when Biden takes over and appoints replacement US Attorneys.
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#17478 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 22:47

Pelosi has called for invocation of the 25th amendment and failing that impeachment.
There is an ongoing full-throated Federal investigation of all actors that were involved in the events that occurred yesterday. When asked specifically the investigator said that this included DJT.

I also heard McEnany give a little speech saying that 'we think violence is bad' She did not say who 'we' were, and did not answer any questions.

Nobody has heard from the President in days.

His videotaped comments seem to be read from a teleprompter - it is hard to say if they reflect his own thoughts or beliefs. Or for that matter, if he believes in much at all.
Non legit hoc
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#17479 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 23:32

From Timothy Snyder

Quote

1/10. The claim that Trump won the election is a big lie.
2/10. A big lie changes reality. To believe it, people must disbelieve their senses, distrust their fellow citizens, and live in a world of faith.
3/10. A big lie demands conspiracy thinking, since all who doubt it are seen as traitors.
4/10. A big lie undoes a society, since it divides citizens into believers and unbelievers.
5/10. A big lie destroys democracy, since people who are convinced that nothing is true but the utterances of their leader ignore voting and its results.
6/10. A big lie must bring violence, as it has.
7/10. A big lie can never be told just by one person. Trump is the originator of this big lie, but it could never have flourished without his allies on Capitol Hill.
8/10. Political futures now depend on this big lie. Senators Hawley and Cruz are running for president on the basis of this big lie.
9/10. There is a cure for the big lie. Our elected representatives should tell the truth, without dissimulation, about the results of the 2020 election.
10/10. Politicians who do not tell the simple truth perpetuate the big lie, further an alternative reality, support conspiracy theories, weaken democracy, and foment violence far worse than that of January 6, 2021.


"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#17480 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 23:54

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-January-07, 22:47, said:

I also heard McEnany give a little speech saying that 'we think violence is bad' She did not say who 'we' were, and did not answer any questions.

Were you born under a turnip truck :) McEnany is the White House Press Secretary. It is not her job to give information or answer questions B-) What are you thinking? :lol:
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