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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#13941 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-October-08, 20:19

Telling it like it is and was, and no, he doesn't absolve Obama, Biden, or Hillary - but none of that justifies Trump.

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If Holder had prosecuted the elite banksters, Trump would have been defeated in the election. The refusal to prosecute the banksters who gained immense wealth by leading frauds and predation, along with the massive bank bailout, was a critical contributor to the public rage that gave Trump his Electoral College victory.

Hillary Clinton’s gratuitous decision to enrich herself through secret speeches to two of the world’s most fraudulent banks – Goldman Sachs and Deutsche Bank – gifted freebies essential to Trump’s election. Clinton advisers repeatedly warned her that the Republicans would use the secret paid speeches as a mace to attack her. She and Bill Clinton were, through tens of millions of dollars in speech fees, already wealthy. She had no financial need to take money from two of the world’s most destructive criminal enterprises. Her greed trumped her ambition, so she ignored her advisers’ warnings and did the secret speeches. Those freebies gifted the election to Trump.


From the NYT article cited in the article:

Quote

Journalists, perhaps seeking to appear balanced, have sometimes described Trump’s claims about Biden as “unsubstantiated” or “unsupported.” That is misleading, because it suggests more muddiness in the factual record than actually exists. Trump isn’t making unproven charges against Biden. He is blatantly lying about him. He and his defenders are spreading a conspiracy theory that is the precise opposite of the truth.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#13942 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2019-October-09, 02:30

View Posty66, on 2019-October-06, 11:44, said:

I don't fault the trolls who post on this thread. Rick Perry made them do it too.

Actually I am starting to get worried about them - can someone check their pulse? Surely by now the marching orders to keep attacking Adam Schiff should have arrived.

On the other hand, I admire the principled stance the White House and DOJ is taking. Even though they know bringing more evidence to light could only be exculpatory, and shine a bright light on the greatest president the US has ever had, they are deeply committed to overturning case law that was wrongly decided in the haste of the Watergate hearings. Where would we end up with if Congress could just decide to investigate alleged criminal wrong-doing by the executive branch?
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#13943 User is online   y66 

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Posted 2019-October-09, 09:46

Perhaps the tariffs are affecting the supply of troll food and taking a toll on the health of the trolls. They have not been getting a rise out of their favorite lib lately. That can't be good for troll morale.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#13944 User is online   y66 

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Posted 2019-October-09, 10:27

From Edward Luce at FT:

Quote

Five years before the financial meltdown of 2008, Robert Lucas famously declared that “the central problem of depression-prevention has been solved . . . and has in fact been solved for many decades”.

The University of Chicago economist was not alone. Up to the eve of the worst crash in 80 years, America’s economic luminaries, including Alan Greenspan, former chairman of the Federal Reserve, and his successor Ben Bernanke insisted there was no cause for alarm.

Having failed to foresee the crisis, many badly misread its aftermath. As early as December 2008, Mervyn King, governor of the Bank of England, anticipated breakaway wage growth. We are still waiting.

Greenspan, meanwhile, predicted double-digit inflation. Eleven years into America’s weakest recovery on record, US inflation remains stubbornly below its two per cent target. As recently as last February, Jay Powell, the current Fed chairman, said it was a “bit of a puzzle” why wage growth had not yet taken off.

Why do economists continue to get it so wrong? One answer is that not all of them do. David Blanchflower, who was on the Bank of England’s monetary policy committee during the 2008 crash, insists that evidence of an impending crash was hidden in plain view long before it happened. Blanchflower, whose book Not Working: Where Have all the Good Jobs Gone? is a stinging rebuke to his profession, was consistently outvoted eight to one on the MPC, which sets UK interest rates. Unlike his colleagues, who were using models based on a 1970s-style economy, Blanchflower went out and talked to people. He calls this “the economics of walking about”.

His peers, meanwhile, were relying on “largely untested theoretical models that amounted to little more than mathematical mind games”. Paul Romer, the former World Bank chief economist, calls this “mathiness” — playing with regression to give a false sense of precision. Others might call it alchemy. Lucas, whose Chicago School housed the high priesthood of mathiness, won a Nobel Prize for his rational expectations theory. It demonstrated that the market was always right.

The rise and fall of the Chicago School is chronicled by Binyamin Appelbaum in his admirable book The Economists’ Hour. As he shows, economists were treated as little more than backroom statisticians until the late 1960s. That was when the Chicago School, led by the Nobel-prize winning Milton Friedman, took over.

The economists’ age of glamour had arrived, propelling them into the centre of power and on to our television screens. They drew inspiration from Friedrich Hayek, whose book The Road to Serfdom (1944) argued that almost any government role in the economy created a slippery slope to autocracy.

The “economists’ hour” contained many overlapping schools. Some, like Friedman, were monetarists, who believed that inflation was solely a function of money supply — control the latter and you tame the former. Others, like Arthur Laffer, were supply-siders, who argue that tax cuts always pay for themselves through higher corporate revenues. All believed that the markets know best. As Greenspan once quipped: “I have never seen a constructive regulation yet”.

Appelbaum argues that their heyday ended on October 13 2008, when the chief executives of America’s largest banks were marched into the US Treasury for a crisis meeting. He is surely correct. The mother of all Wall Street bailouts shattered the reputation economics had gained over the previous 40 years. Yet economists’ hubris lingers. Perhaps it is a lagging indicator. Economists might call it “sticky”.

One reason that wages have not picked up in Britain and the US is because many economists are still using the old models. Real-term weekly wages for non-supervisory US production workers are 9 per cent below where they were in 1972. In the UK, the hourly wage is 5.7 per cent lower than it was before the great recession.

The traditional models — notably, “Nairu”, the non-accelerating inflation rate of unemployment — tell economists that a jobless rate of 3.5 per cent, which is the current US level, is well below the point at which higher wage demands would start to kick in. Just wait one more quarter, they say. The data will arrive.

This overlooks the importance of the low labour force participation rate, which captures those who have given up seeking work altogether and who are excluded from the jobless measure. One in 12 prime age American males are ex-offenders, which pretty much shuts them out of the jobs market. Walking about more might help central bankers grasp that the jobless rate no longer captures reality.

“Policymakers at the start of 2019 seem to be just as out of touch with what is going on outside the big cities as they were as the great recession was nearing,” writes Blanchflower.

Another ancient model, which was last put into practice by Herbert Hoover after the 1929 Wall Street Crash, holds that an economy should be punished for its excesses. Hoover’s fiscal contraction turned the stock market crash into the Great Depression. George Osborne, the UK chancellor after 2010, and the Tea Party of Republican populists, which took control of Congress the same year, revived that old saw. The dampening effects of Osborne’s policy of “expansionary austerity” helped pave the way for the Leave vote in the 2016 Brexit referendum. Washington’s fiscal gridlock helped tee-up Donald Trump’s victory in the US presidential election later that year.

Yet the hubris persists. One of Trump’s advisers is Arthur Laffer, whose wife famously goes on long runs “because it’s the only way I can stay married to a lunatic”. Trump’s $1.6tn tax cut was the wrong medicine for an economy suffering from low investment. The tax cut has neither paid for itself, as Laffer predicted, nor lifted the US growth rate. With interest rates so low, it would be the ideal time to modernise America’s infrastructure. As Blanchflower quips, America’s failure to do so is the equivalent of leaving a trillion dollar note on the sidewalk.

So where do we go from here? In his seminal book Global Inequality (2016), Branko Milanovic — a New York-based academic originally from Serbia — showed that we are living in the age of global convergence. As his now famous “elephant chart” showed, the world’s low-income economies are rapidly catching up with the west. The main body of the elephant shows income growth for the bulk of the world’s population. The downwardly curving trunk captures the ill-fated western middle classes. Finally the trunk tips sharply upwards to reflect the outsized gains of the west’s one per cent. Almost everyone, including the world’s poorest, are benefiting from global convergence. That includes the globalised elites in China, the US and elsewhere, who have never had it so good.

The big exception are the west’s blue-collar workforces, who are likely to feel the squeeze for decades to come. Support for globalisation tends to be high in the east and low in the west. Ninety one per cent of people in Vietnam say they are fans of globalisation, against just 37 per cent in France.

In his latest book Capitalism, Alone, Milanovic explains why capitalism no longer has competitors. China’s economy is now 80 per cent private sector-owned, versus 50 per cent in the late 1990s and zero per cent before it began its reforms in 1978.

The new global competition, Milanovic argues, is between different types of capitalism. This he divides into two: the west’s “liberal meritocratic capitalism” versus China’s “political capitalism”.

Each is beset with its own problems. China’s model is undemocratic and must generate high growth rates to maintain its legitimacy. Meanwhile, in most of the west, meritocracy is failing. For the first time, the top 0.1 per cent in America now own the same amount of wealth as the bottom 90 per cent (at 22 per cent of national wealth and 22.8 per cent respectively). As recently as the 1980s, the bottom 90 per cent accounted for more than a third of America’s wealth.

Part of this can be attributed to the fact that today’s working rich also live off their capital investments, which consistently achieve higher returns than the non-financial economy. Most of the owners of capital also work for a living. They are harder to tax than those living solely off economic rents “since their high incomes are viewed as being more deserved”. As a result, the west — and particularly the US — is becoming steadily more oligarchic. We can thank the Chicago School for that.

Inequality in China is even worse than in the US — and continues to grow. One explanation for Hong Kong’s current ferment is that the city-state is essentially ruled by its plutocratic elites who are appointed by China. Yet most people cannot afford basic housing. Corruption is also growing in China and other parts of the developing world. The more closely bound the rest of the world is into the global economy, the more corruption opportunities arise.

The International Monetary Fund’s errors and omissions on global trade, which tracks anomalies in the numbers, has doubled since 2008 to around $200bn. One of the easiest ways to hide the proceeds of graft is to under-invoice exports and over-invoice imports. By deflating your export earnings and inflating your import bill, you can make your ill-gotten gains disappear. The west’s battery of lawyers and real estate firms, especially in London and New York, handle the rest. They also provide what Milanovic calls “moral laundering” by facilitating generous kleptocratic donations to Ivy League universities and art galleries.

The closer one looks, the more it appears that Milanovic’s two types of capitalism are merging. The west’s claims to meritocracy look increasingly hollow, while China’s promise of eternal growth must surely be coming to an end. What we do know is that there is growing equality between nations and growing inequality within them. No system, whether liberal or illiberal, can tolerate plutocracy indefinitely.

“As long as capitalists used most of their surplus income to invest rather than to consume, the social contract held,” writes Milanovic. His book leaves little doubt that the social contract no longer holds. Whether you live in Beijing or New York, the time for renegotiation is approaching.

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#13945 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2019-October-09, 12:00

View Posty66, on 2019-October-09, 10:27, said:

From Edward Luce at FT:




It's an interesting article. I had not heard of the elephant graph but I have now looked it up.


It seems that the history of economic thought goes something like this: Every decade or so a revision occurs, the new guys explain that the old guys were really stupid but fortunately they, the new guys, have now seen the light. We can always hope. History suggests caution.
Ken
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#13946 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-October-09, 12:37

View Postkenberg, on 2019-October-09, 12:00, said:



It's an interesting article. I had not heard of the elephant graph but I have now looked it up.


It seems that the history of economic thought goes something like this: Every decade or so a revision occurs, the new guys explain that the old guys were really stupid but fortunately they, the new guys, have now seen the light. We can always hope. History suggests caution.


Quote

“We learn from history that we do not learn from history.” - Friedrich Hegel

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#13947 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2019-October-09, 13:09

View PostWinstonm, on 2019-October-09, 12:37, said:



"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." - Friedrich Hegel



I like that!

Ken
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#13948 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2019-October-09, 17:24

View Posty66, on 2019-October-09, 10:27, said:

economists were treated as little more than backroom statisticians until the late 1960s

LOL. Can anyone take this sort of rubbish throwaway article seriously?
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#13949 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2019-October-10, 03:08

Trump On Abandoning Kurdish Forces: The Kurds Didn’t Help Us In WWII

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President Donald Trump defended his controversial decision to yank support for U.S.-allied Kurdish fighters by noting that the Kurds didn’t help the U.S. during World War II and the invasion of Normandy, known as D-day.

“Now the Kurds are fighting for their land,” Trump told reporters at the White House on Wednesday.“As somebody wrote in a very powerful article today, they didn’t help us in the Second World War, they didn’t help us with Normandy, as an example,” the president added. “They’re there to help us with their land, and that’s a different thing.”

The Stable History Genius strikes again. It is true that there is no mention of Kurdland taking sides during WWII. :rolleyes: It's almost like they had a Fake country. I hope nobody at the White House jeopardizes their job by point out that the USA is a fake Christian country because it never sent troops to fight in the Crusades. You would think that god's favorite country, the US of A could spare a few tanks, fighter jets, and heavy bombers to help win back the Holy Land.
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#13950 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2019-October-10, 03:52

View Postjohnu, on 2019-October-10, 03:08, said:

The Stable History Genius strikes again. It is true that there is no mention of Kurdland taking sides during WWII. :rolleyes: It's almost like they had a Fake country. I hope nobody at the White House jeopardizes their job by point out that the USA is a fake Christian country because it never sent troops to fight in the Crusades. You would think that god's favorite country, the US of A could spare a few tanks, fighter jets, and heavy bombers to help win back the Holy Land.


The Kurds did have a state in the 1920s. Given that it was conquered by the British and returned to Iraqi control by the (American dominated) League of Nations, one could understand if they were somewhat distrustful of the Allied side during WWII. To some extent it is therefore perhaps surprising that they were not fighting on the side of the Axis powers.

But your scepticism is misplaced here. As your President is the second coming of God with a mandate from Heaven, his unmatched wisdom can surely never be questioned.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#13951 User is offline   PassedOut 

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Posted 2019-October-10, 06:33

View PostZelandakh, on 2019-October-10, 03:52, said:

The Kurds did have a state in the 1920s. Given that it was conquered by the British and returned to Iraqi control by the (American dominated) League of Nations, one could understand if they were somewhat distrustful of the Allied side during WWII.

The 1920 Treaty of Sevres was never ratified. It was replaced by the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne, which was ratified and contained no reference to Kurdistan, accepting the reality that Ataturk then controlled the territory. The US was never a member of the League of Nations, although Wilson dearly wanted it to be.
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#13952 User is online   y66 

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Posted 2019-October-10, 10:38

From Trump’s betrayal of Kurds hastens waning of US power by Ed Luce at FT:

Quote

Forget for a moment the manner in which Donald Trump has sold out the Kurds during an admiring late-night call with Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey’s strongman; his US troop withdrawal, which caught White House advisers by surprise: the bombastic tweets that followed. All these were vintage Mr Trump. But we should not let the noise obscure the signal. America has been trying to extricate itself from the Middle East for years. Mr Trump is only following in the footsteps of Barack Obama.

It used to be said it was better to be Britain’s enemy than its friend; Britain made deals with its enemies and betrayed its friends. The Kurds might feel the same way about the US. As long ago as 1975, after Washington withdrew CIA support from an Iraqi Kurd uprising, Henry Kissinger said: “F**k the Kurds if they can’t take a joke.” Mr Trump’s decision to abandon America’s most important ally in Syria is reckless — not least because it opens the way for an Isis resurgence. But his betrayal is hardly original.

The difference is that the US is now paying a higher price for its mistakes. Mr Trump’s come in two forms. The first mistake is the way in which he makes them. It is one thing to catch your allies by surprise. It is another to wrongfoot your own staff. That produces confusion and demoralisation. Has Mr Trump given Mr Erdogan the green light to squash the Syrian Kurds? Nobody working for Mr Trump knows because he keeps contradicting himself. Mr Erdogan is probing the answer to that question.

The second is the nature of Mr Trump’s mistakes. As America’s global power wanes, its need for allies grows. Back in 1975, the US could afford bad wars and a crooked president. Richard Nixon was driven from office. The war in Vietnam was many times more costly and bloody than any US engagement since then. Today’s margin for error is slimmer. Mr Trump has a death wish for America’s alliances. This includes the formal ones, such as Nato, and the informal ones, such as that with the Syrian Kurds.

The more he pokes America’s friends in the eye, the less likely they are to remain steadfast. This poses a particularly unwelcome dilemma for allies in Asia, which are militarily tied to the US but increasingly dependent on China for their prosperity. In the Middle East, the Syrian Defence Forces, which are made up mostly of Kurdish fighters, lost an estimated 10,000 soldiers fighting Isis, which is one of Mr Trump’s priorities. The US lost five soldiers. The next time Washington needs the Kurds, they will demand more US skin in the game.

Yet Mr Trump is not alone in his mistakes. To judge by the Democratic uproar, you would think that he had sold the Syrian Kurds into slavery. Mr Obama cut the Iraqi Kurds loose when he pulled out of Iraq in 2011. He then enlisted the Syrian Kurds to help fight Isis, which had rushed to fill the vacuum created by America’s departure. The gap between Mr Obama and Mr Trump on foreign wars is mostly about style. On substance, Mr Trump represents continuity.

The outrage from Republicans is even more myopic. Mr Trump’s most loyal defenders, including Mitch McConnell, the Senate majority leader, and Lindsey Graham, the South Carolina senator, have condemned his withdrawal as catastrophic to US power. This is awkward since betrayal of the Kurds has a long history. Republican fury sits even more oddly with their silence over Ukraine. As a friendly democracy bordering Russia, Ukraine’s survival is more strategically important to the US than the Kurds.

The difference, of course, is that Mr Trump faces impeachment over “Ukrainegate”. To govern is to choose. Confronted with a choice between supporting a US friendship in Russia’s backyard, and backing Mr Trump, almost all Republicans have gone for the latter. Their fury about the Kurds betrays bad conscience. It comes in part as overcompensation for leaving Ukraine in the lurch.

All of which is bad news for America’s friends. Mr Trump, to be sure, presents an irresistible target: his tweet extolling his own “great and unmatched wisdom” should end up as his epitaph. The lesson for America’s allies is more durable. The US is not the rock it used to be. Mr Trump is only part of the reason why.

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#13953 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2019-October-10, 11:59

View PostZelandakh, on 2019-October-10, 03:52, said:

The Kurds did have a state in the 1920s. Given that it was conquered by the British and returned to Iraqi control by the (American dominated) League of Nations, one could understand if they were somewhat distrustful of the Allied side during WWII. To some extent it is therefore perhaps surprising that they were not fighting on the side of the Axis powers.

Since WWII was 1939-1945, the Kurds had no separate country, they were a small minority in various other sovereign countries, and they had no say in Iraq or Syria WWII involvement. Now if the Manchurian President has a beef about countries not fighting with the Allies in WWII, Syria and Iraq should be his target.
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#13954 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-October-10, 15:01

Next time you see Graham defending the Kurds, remember the following

https://www.politico...oax-call-043991
Alderaan delenda est
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#13955 User is online   y66 

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Posted 2019-October-10, 15:29

Speaking of economists getting it wrong, here's my favorite economist talking about what he and others got wrong about the effects of globalization on wages and employment in the manufacturing sector.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#13956 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-October-10, 16:07

This is interesting. Bloomberg yesterday reported that in 2017 Trump pushed Secretary of State Rex Tillerson to try to get the DOJ to drop charges against a Turkish-Iranian businesman named Reza Zarrab. In April of 2017, The New Yorker had an article about Zarrab in which it was pointed out that he was trading as much as 1 ton of gold daily with Iran in exchange for oil and natural gas, a scheme to go around U.S. sanctions agasint Iran, a sheme in which it is thought Erdogan may have been part of or at least condoned.

But Zarra was arrested for money laundering by the FBI in Miami, and he arranged for two high-powered New York attorneys. After failing to get bail arranged, he fired those attorneys and hired Rudy Guiliani.

The U.S. attorney who was prosecuting Zarrab was Preet Bharara. One week after Zarrab hired Guiliani, Trump fired Bharara. Guiliani is said to have tried to work out a diplomatic solution to the arrest.

And now Trump abandons the Kurds and fails to sanction Turkey for the purchase of a missile defense system from Russia. What does Erdogan have on Trump, I wonder? Is all this corruption interrelated?

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#13957 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-October-10, 16:10

Oops. Big trouble for Guiliani or Trump or all of the above?
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#13958 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-October-10, 16:32

Rudy Guiliani as Vincent Vega and Donald Trump as Lance in Pulp Factions:

Vincent is driving reckless in his convertible. A body slumps against the passenger door. He is on this cell phone.

Quote

Vincent (Guiliani): It's Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, they're OD'd on me from jet lag, man!

Lance (Trump): Well don't bring them to the White House! Bite the bullet and take them to the hospital!

Vincent (Guiliani): No can do! They're dyin' to meet you, man!

Lance (Trump): Are you calling me on the cellular phone? I don't know you. Who is this? Don't come here, I'm hanging up the phone! Prank caller, prank caller!

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#13959 User is online   y66 

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Posted 2019-October-10, 17:04

From the small world department: The mug shots for Igor Fruman and Lev Parnas appeared in the evening news stamped with "Alexandria Sheriff's Office". I used to play golf with the former sheriff. His jail has hosted quite a few high profile defendants over the years including Robert Hanssen, a spy, Zacarias Moussaoui, a 9/11 terrorist, Aldrich Ames, a spy, Harold Nicholson, a spy, Judith Miller, an NYT reporter, Lyndon H. LaRouche Jr. and Paul Manafort. We once played in a rain storm with a group of 20 or so friends all of whom, except me and the sheriff, quit before finishing the front nine. On the back nine, the sun came out and we were like two kids playing like we had the world to ourselves, hitting a few memorable shots even, and feeling about as far away from the day-to-day world as you could get.
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#13960 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2019-October-11, 02:28

Hi all.

I am writing this from Turkey now, came to visit my family. Most of you know how much I hate Trump and Erdogan from my previous comments in BBF. But to be honest saying Turks attacking to Kurds is equal to saying USA is attacking to Islam just because they fight against ISIS or Al-Qaeda. Please do not let your judgement be blind due to how you feel about Trump and/or Erdogan.

Turkey is in war with PKK and 2 other Kurdish groups that has very strong ties with PKK for 3 decades. They killed many civilian Turks and soldiers. I have to admit Turkish government was never fair to Kurds regarding their minority rights and we would never have these issues had Turkish government taken a different approach in the past. But todays problem is totally different. We are talking about a group that has been trying to earn their rights by guns. Not only that, in case of a peace most of them can not even hold a job. This has been their life style. As long as this conflict continues they will be given big money and arms by many countries just like Palestanians are being armed against Israel mostly by European countries. Peace in this region will take many out of the only job they know, that they are trained for, which is nothing but to create terror. Look at the bigger picture. Who feeds them? Who benefits most from this chaos? Then you will have better understanding of mıddle east where I was born and raised, slept with AK-47 concert in the background always.

Back to the current issue. All this so called media and politicians want you to forget some of the basic facts about this group of Kurds. Who your ally is and misinform you about who was betrayed. Forget what Timo or Turkey says about these people and watch for yourself from AMERICAN inteligence and Senator what they really are (about 2 mins video). And please tell me is this the same Lindsey Graham in video who says the things he says today?

Your ally is Turkey, a NATO country and hosts very strategical geography and hosts 2 of your biggest bases in the region. Not a bunch of terrorists which you paid to fight against ISIS and can easily fight against you if others pay more. Again do not let your feelings about Trump cloud your judgement. He did the right thing on this one. Despite my strong opposition to Erdogan.


https://www.youtube....Zwdoe_lBK6CYSNY
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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