[Stephen Tu]

mikeh, on 2015-April-21, 12:55, said:

There are ways of handling the problem you identify, but to explicate them here would require long post. I can say that life is far easier on these auctions if, after we have 4-level minor suit agreement, we don't use keycard.....use 4N as a forward-going hand with no cue available. Along with LTCC, life works out pretty well.

More importantly, even if I were to concede that, in the absence of special agreements, the 3♥ then 4♦ sequence can lead to ambiguity, which I think is fair, that is not at all saying that the solution is to use 4♥ as some sort of 3-way splinter, trumps to be announced later!

Any problem with the heart suit pales in comparison to the problems that arise after a splinter...yes...on a good day all can work out well, but on a bad day one creates insoluble problems.

I wasn't proposing it as 3-way splinter, more 2-way splinter. But I think even 3-way splinter could work in principle. Suppose:
1. Responder bid 4♠ with wastage/bad hand for slam. Obv opener can then just pass/correct to trump suit?
2. With good hand for slam, responder could accept using six-keycard (both minors) responses or something like that (presumably SKQ aren't relevant since opener will be looking at them with the spade auto-spl). Opener could then place contract.
You would lose cue specificity, responder being able to show an ace/K in one suit rather than another. Maybe grand bidding would suffer some, but to me the decision between game/small slam is way more important & frequent than small vs. grand.

What "insoluble problems" did you have in mind?

[MrAce]

Stephen Tu, on 2015-April-21, 13:22, said:

What "insoluble problems" did you have in mind?

He can start listing, but I doubt he can finish any time this year.

[Stephen Tu]

MrAce, on 2015-April-21, 15:56, said:

He can start listing, but I doubt he can finish any time this year.

I'd be satisfied with one insoluble problem.

[MrAce]

Stephen Tu, on 2015-April-21, 16:49, said:

I'd be satisfied with one insoluble problem.

Oh you need just one?

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[Stephen Tu]

?? That's an entirely different auction. I'm not saying splinters in general without suit agreed, I'm talking about my original auction specifically. For your auction it would be totally silly to play that since you have many more lower sequences available, and only one person has begun describing shape at all, there's no guarantee of any sort of fit if responder has minors. On my auction, the double hand is better defined, and there are multiple other options to show spade only hands, so opener can splinter only with hands where he knows which suit he ultimately wants to select, and just needs some help judging how high to go.

[MrAce]

Sry my bad then. I thought the auction I gave was in discussion.

[FrancesHinden]

I think 3H and then 4D (if partner bids 3NT) is more like a 6-4 in the pointed suits; 3H was looking for spade support. An immediate 4D is (at least) 5-5 and shows more certainty about strain. That's why I picked it over the slower route.

[MinorKid]

3♥.

It is better than 4♦ as most of the chance partner would had bid 5♦ over your 4♦.


After 3♥:
If he bid 5♦ then pass.

If part bid 4♦ now you can launch RKC redwood or blackwood.

If he bid 3NT or 4♣ you can pull 4♦, hope he launch RKC redwood or blackwood himself.

If he bid 3♠, then raise ♠.