[kenrexford]

Had an interesting (perhaps) sequence last night, and I am curious as to whether I am out of my mind (this time -- I will concede general insanity).

The auction at MP, all red, starts:

P(me)-1♣(could be short)-1♥-X

1NT-2♠-P-P-

2NT

First, before reading on, what would you interpret 2NT to mean?

Now,

Spoiler

I thought that my 2NT contextually should show a maximum for my previously-stated but also previously limited (by the pass) range, meaning about an 11 HCP hand. I also felt that it should show limited defense (because I did not open with primes and did not double or even just pass), with probably a single stopper in spades. I also felt that it should show a sort of snapdragon pattern, meaning heart tolerance (two cards) with a longer minor, and I believe that the minor should probably be clubs in context.

The end result, FWIW, is that I declared 2NT only, taking 10 tricks for +180. Because I made so many tricks, we could have set 2♠ two tricks for +200. Had partner understood my meaning, we should IMO have been in 3NT for +630 (better than +500). I don't care about his decision, right or wrong. I care about whether my intended meaning/interpretation is sane or insane.

[glen]

I like redouble on the max hands with doubleton M support

In that context, 2NT here would 5/4 either way in the minors

[kenrexford]

glen, on 2014-November-14, 12:17, said:

I like redouble on the max hands with doubleton M support

In that context, 2NT here would 5/4 either way in the minors

Yes. I changed the actual auction to get away from a bizarre other part. The actual auction has Responder bid 1S rather than double because the opponents, strangely, do not use negative doubles. Hence, redouble was not anoption.

[MrAce]

Ken, I don't know what is the optimal use for that 2NT, but if I was your pd at the table, I would never think you are inviting for 3 NT, nor I would think you have a ♥ tolerance.

I would simply think that you are trying to find a minor fit at 3 level since they already found a fit, to play or to push them to 3 level. In that context, I would do it with any 5-4 minors and sometimes 4-4 minors at MP.

So you and I would never reach to game and probably got a worse score than +180 in a 3m contract, or at best I would let you play in 2 NT. Because I do not expect you to have a maximum for your bid necessarily. You had max and made too many tricks, you could have been minimum and just made 2 NT or 3m when they were making 2♠ or going down less than +200 for us in 2♠. If we expect you to have max, then we would have to pass with non-max hands and lose the competition often.

[gnasher]

If your hand is worth an invitational 2NT now, why was it worth only1NT on the previous round? Did it improve when RHO raised spades?

2NT obviously shows both minors. That is consistent with the bidding, because:
- We couldn't show both minors on the previous round.
- The spade raise makes it more likely that we'd want to play in a minor.

[kenrexford]

gnasher, on 2014-November-14, 16:54, said:

If your hand is worth an invitational 2NT now, why was it worth only1NT on the previous round? Did it improve when RHO raised spades?

2NT obviously shows both minors. That is consistent with the bidding, because:
- We couldn't show both minors on the previous round.
- The spade raise makes it more likely that we'd want to play in a minor.

Couple of subtleties, though.

First, if LHO is using a short club approach, I would have doubled 1S as minors. Granted, the actual auction was different from the original post auction, and I had not thought through that the change was important. But, if double of 1S would be responsive, that affects the different 1NT. ..2NT sequence.

Second, 2NT directly by a passed hand would seem to be a fit jump. Hence, that's not an option.

[whereagles]

geez, ken.. what a convoluted way to write the problem

Anyway, agree with your interpretation of 2NT showing a max, on grounds of the meta-rule: "undiscussed bids are natural".

[gnasher]

kenrexford, on 2014-November-14, 20:01, said:

Couple of subtleties, though.

Or, putting it another way, "I didn't get the answer that I wanted, so I'll change the question again."

Perhaps it would help if you started again, this time telling us
- The auction that you actually want to discuss, rather than some other auction.
- What your relevant agreements are.

[kenrexford]

Dang it. I was trying to make it easy and screwed the pooch.

The actual auction, with subtlties:
P(opens many 11-counts)
1 ♣(could be short, Montreal Relay approach, strong 1NT)
1 ♥ overcall (normal)
1♠ response (4+ for unknown reasons)
1NT (8-11; jumps are fit bids; X would be responsive)
2♠ (no support doubles, but assuredly 4 anyway)
P
P
2NT

[WesleyC]

On the actual real-life auction I think 2NT is shapely minor takeout, probably without heart tolerance but likely with longer clubs.

[whereagles]

you're getting colder, ken.. lol

[kenrexford]

whereagles, on 2014-November-15, 11:18, said:

you're getting colder, ken.. lol

Actually, all plausible hands will be similar. 3235 and 3145 are not that dissimilar. 2245 also. Perhaps 2245 might be the Platonic ideal. The question may be whether the initial selection between double and 1NT makes deviation from 2245 more likely 3235, 3244, or 3145.

[ggwhiz]

I have had a similar auction or at least of the same flavor. After pard opened 1♣ - 1♦ overcall and I bid 1nt with 2 diamond stoppers (KQT), 5 clubs to the KQ and out.

After 2♦ back to me I bid 2nt intended as source of tricks (clubs) with min defense and did get raised to a making game.

This is different but a (hoped for) source of tricks in a minor here?

[kenrexford]

ggwhiz, on 2014-November-15, 17:18, said:

I have had a similar auction or at least of the same flavor. After pard opened 1♣ - 1♦ overcall and I bid 1nt with 2 diamond stoppers (KQT), 5 clubs to the KQ and out.

After 2♦ back to me I bid 2nt intended as source of tricks (clubs) with min defense and did get raised to a making game.

This is different but a (hoped for) source of tricks in a minor here?

Yeah, sort of a hedge bid, also. Rather than simply bidding 3C, you bid 2NT to say that you have clubs, with extras, allowing partner more information and options. Passing is one option. Raising another. Converting to 3C a third.

The big questions are whether 3D and/or 3H are options also. Both seems very tight, essentially forcing 2245. So, which do you give up?

[dboxley]

kenrexford, on 2014-November-14, 11:23, said:

Had an interesting (perhaps) sequence last night, and I am curious as to whether I am out of my mind (this time -- I will concede general insanity).

The auction at MP, all red, starts:

P(me)-1♣(could be short)-1♥-X

1NT-2♠-P-P-

2NT

First, before reading on, what would you interpret 2NT to mean?

Now,

Spoiler

I thought that my 2NT contextually should show a maximum for my previously-stated but also previously limited (by the pass) range, meaning about an 11 HCP hand. I also felt that it should show limited defense (because I did not open with primes and did not double or even just pass), with probably a single stopper in spades. I also felt that it should show a sort of snapdragon pattern, meaning heart tolerance (two cards) with a longer minor, and I believe that the minor should probably be clubs in context.

The end result, FWIW, is that I declared 2NT only, taking 10 tricks for +180. Because I made so many tricks, we could have set 2♠ two tricks for +200. Had partner understood my meaning, we should IMO have been in 3NT for +630 (better than +500). I don't care about his decision, right or wrong. I care about whether my intended meaning/interpretation is sane or insane.

Minors