[fbear]

Having switched to strong NT, I wondered what people play (if anything) when their 15-17 NT is doubled ?

It may vary of course depending on the meaning of the double.

I wondered whether it isn't just easier to play 'system on', but for the faint hearted have a wriggle if they insist along the lines of:-

1NT-(X)-?

XX = single suited minor with opener's rebid 2C=p/c
Pass = forced XX, then : Pass = to play OR 2 suit = lowest of 2.

I have to confess to being a fan of 'system on' with Pass and XX to play, but I wondered what people play.

All suggestions much appreciated.

[Vampyr]

fbear, on 2014-September-30, 12:35, said:

Having switched to strong NT, I wondered what people play (if anything) when their 15-17 NT is doubled ?

It may vary of course depending on the meaning of the double.

I wondered whether it isn't just easier to play 'system on', but for the faint hearted have a wriggle if they insist along the lines of:-

1NT-(X)-?

XX = single suited minor with opener's rebid 2C=p/c
Pass = forced XX, then : Pass = to play OR 2 suit = lowest of 2.

I have to confess to being a fan of 'system on' with Pass and XX to play, but I wondered what people play.

All suggestions much appreciated.

Whatever you do, make sure you can play 1NTX.

[trevahound]

Vampyr, on 2014-September-30, 12:43, said:

Whatever you do, make sure you can play 1NTX.

This.

[helene_t]

System on plus rdbl=to play is hopeless since you need a way to get out in 2♣ or 2♦. Note that even if their dbl is artificial it doesn't mean that it is unlikely to be left in.

Pass=forcing rdbl is not great either because if they dbl for penalties and you have enough to make 1NT, it is better not to give them two chances to escape. 1NTx is better than 3NT unless it makes exactly nine tricks so at matchpoints it usually makes little difference if you make 1NTx or 1NTxx. Besides, with a 4333 3-count 1NTx-1 may be the best you can achieve.

wriggle, or just everything to play, is ok but you need to know what 2NT means also and you need to know what your subsequent actions mean if you first pass and then come to live after they escape. This is because you need a way to bid constructively after their artificial double.

The easiest is to play system on and rbl=weak with clubs or diamonds.

[benlessard]

If the X is penalty what I suggest is

pass = to play or (4333), opener will XX only with a 5 card suit, responder with pts will pass and with a 4333 he will bid 2C. 2M with a 5-3 fit is better than 1Nt but since responder is flat and the defense know it its a small plus not a great plus.

XX = 2 suiters, if you get X again, XX = lowest suit is better. Bid = highest suit is better EX... 2C get X , with 4D+5M or 4H+5S bid 2D/2H with 5D+4M or 5H+4S XX again this will maximize your chance to rightside the contract.

2 anything to play, the transfers are only 2nt and higher.

When 4th seat X, opener should XX with a doubleton hearts without 5C (instead of XX with a maximum) and bid 2C with 5+ clubs.


When responder got a singlesuiter bidding it directly is less vulnerable to get punished than after a transfers or XX single suiters a la Dont.

1NT-(X)-XX-(??) if the XX is a singlesuiter opps should play that pass show some pts, with 0-2 they should bid something. So later when you run with the single suiter the initial doubler can double again more agressively (whatever if they play takeout or penalties) knowing advancer is not broke.

If you XX with the 2 suiters its the same thing but the difference is its better to face penalties double with a 2/3 suiters than with a single suiter since you can use the XX to scramble into better contracts, either rightside them or to show wich of your two suits is better. When they double a singlesuiter you have no upside with the XX. Also many 2 suiters can often play in the 3rd suit. 5431,4432 you may have a fit with your 3 card suit. So XX with those hand is a better start anyway than 2 in your lowest suit a la Dont.

Playing weak nt ive tested this method vs 2 other methods, one was suction and one where pass was forcing and it clearly smoked them after about 150 hands.

After a strong nt rightsiding and getting a plus score will become more important while playing a weak nt your goal is more to make it harder for them to punish you so its possible a suction scheme might get the upper hand after a strong NT.

My view is that we should just really really do a sim for those things ...my guess is after only 150 hands there will be only one to 3 methods that will still be acceptable the others methods will be in the garbage and another 100 hands the winner should be clear enough. I dont believe its a situation where many methods are equivalents (after a penalty X not a conv X)

[mycroft]

It's arguable if you want to play a wriggle at all - many, if not most, in my area don't, and strong NT is almost universal.

In fact, penalty doubles of 1NT are unusual - I'd say a large minority (35, 40%) play them, with the majority playing double as something artificial. That doesn't mean it won't get passed, of course :-)

Playing a weak NT, my rule is "I don't care what the double means, runouts are on" (partly because we can play all contracts, including 1NTx); because the chance of advancer having the penalty double and just passing for giggles is high. Playing a strong NT, I don't worry about that all that much.

Sure, when they do have a penalty double, and they make it, and it's right, you're 5 or 800 into nothing, and you don't get much field protection because much of the field doesn't have a penalty double. Once or twice a year, yep. Is it worth destroying that wonderful system you have over 1NT-p for that once or twice a year?

One note: if you will frequently open 1NT with a 5cM, especially if that's uncommon in your area, it might be worth playing that opener's XX, should it get back to her, shows a 5-card suit. Responder, having heard 1NT-X-p-p; XX-p, can decide to sit it or run to opener's suit with 2♣. Might :-)

[aguahombre]

helene_t, on 2014-September-30, 13:47, said:

The easiest is to play system on and rbl=weak with clubs or diamonds.

Yes, but we add weak with both majors to this.

XXXXX
XXXXX
x
XX

rdbl - 2c
2H= that conglomeration; otherwise would have to xfer to one of them or pass.

[P_Marlowe]

fbear, on 2014-September-30, 12:35, said:

<snip>
I have to confess to being a fan of 'system on' with Pass and XX to play, but I wondered what people play.
<snip>

This.

[Jinksy]

I'm a fan of extended Stavely:

Pass, XX, and 2M are all natural.
2♣ is either natural or any two other suits (if NV and both majors, with better Ss), to be revealed by responder's next action.
2♦ is either natural or both majors (no preference or better Hs), to be revealed by responder's next action.

Although one day I'd still love to play the Standard Old wriggle, as developed by the geniuses behind Rainbow Gerber:

All bids are natural.
Redouble is for blood.
Pass forces redouble, which is for blood.

Look into the whites of your opponents' eyes, and see which of them is most likely to cave to the pressure.

I'm told this is less effective for online play. Also not optimal when using screens.

[helene_t]

Jinksy, on 2014-October-01, 03:57, said:

2♣ is either natural or any two other suits (if NV and both majors, with better Ss), to be revealed by responder's next action.
2♦ is either natural or both majors (no preference or better Hs), to be revealed by responder's next action.

I think that may be a good idea opposite a mini 1nt. When you know opps have game you are mostly ok playing 2m in a 3-1 fit as long as you aren't doubled. You can then redouble to show the 2-suited hand.

But playing strong notrump (or even 12-14), this will be rare. More commonly you have a weakish hand that doesn't expect 1nt to make but with which -200 or even -150 is likely to be a bad score. So you want to stay at the two-level when you have one long minor, and you don't want to play a nonsense 2m contract when you have the two-suited hand.

Of course it will work against pairs who play dbl as forcing to 2mX, but playing a strong notrump in a weak notrump culture I wouldn't trust opps to rescue me even if they claim to play that way.

[Jinksy]

That's an interesting point. You could modify it to just bid your better minor for both majors (as we do if vul), though you might still be reluctant to seek ♦/M fits.

Opposite a strong NT, though, I'd be reluctant to give up a natural XX. It's surely more common to have 6/10 HCP than 9/13.

[foobar]

Here's a catalog of runout methods:

http://web.archive.o...om/dbl_1nt0.htm