[eagles123]

I accepted 100% blame for this at the time, but was thinking about it a lot on the drive home and now not so sure

scoring is MP
basic system is weak NT 4 card major 3 weak 2's... no in depth agreeements.

---

going one off when 7 diamonds 6 hearts and 6 no trump all make

who is to blame?

Thanks,

Eagles

[wank]

well, in a way it's hard to comment because your methods are unusually bad. 2d should be forcing (yes, before anyone says anything says about acol, it should be forcing in any methods) in which case you would rebid them to show 5-5. for most people 3♦ is a spinter for clubs, and for some invitational 5-5, but evidently you were at least on the same wavelength.

anyway once east rebids them, west should be positively delighted to play in diamonds (an ace, 2 honours in partner's suits and the ability to ruff the first suit out). sadly due to the lack of space, on account of the wanky methods, making the cuebid that this west hand is worth would be a little tricky.

as for east he should probably (this is v close and i'm possibly mistaken and a simulation will say 6c is odds on) just pass 5 clubs. his hand has got worse and worse. he should be envisaging something like jxx x kx aqjxxxx. it's quite tricky for west to have enough to make 6C great though equally it's always going to have some play.

[Cyberyeti]

5♣ is a terrible bid, partner is at least 5-5 in the reds, he probably has no more than one club as if he has, opps NV/V have gone to bed with an enormous spade fit (which in fact they have).

We'd have a similar auction to you because for us 1♣-1suit-2♣-2♦ is a relay so partner bids 3♣, we bid 3♦ then back to your auction.

I would be bidding 5♦ over 4♦, partner might well bid 6 but I don't think you're getting to 7.

[mgoetze]

Wait, what? 3♦ was forcing? AND it showed diamonds?

[helene_t]

mgoetze, on 2014-September-08, 20:08, said:

Wait, what? 3♦ was forcing? AND it showed diamonds?

Yes I think that is quite normal in Acol. 2♦ should be forcing but 2♦ followed by 3♦ not. Similar to
1♠-2♣
2♥-3♣
3♥=NF

1♠-2♣
3♥=GF

[ahydra]

With normal ACOL 3SF/4SF stuff, since 2D is forcing, 3D normally shows a big two-suiter - something pretty much like this. Assuming that's what the partnership agreement is, I like the 3D bid. Now 4D from West (agree suit, show slam interest - how big is that HK now!), ask for keycards, ask for kings, and Robert becomes your relative.

5C was the bid that caused the whole thing to collapse. A poor choice from West - 5D stands out.

ahydra

[Jinksy]

I don't agree with the second part (of Helene's post, which I was too slow to be underneath). I think here-

1♣ 1♥
2♣ 2♦
3♣ 3♦

3♦ is still forcing. Otherwise what's responder supposed to do on this type of hand (or a more mundane 2551 shape)?

Anyway, in the given auction, W should raise 3♦ to 4 if it promised 5 of them. If it was just E's only forcing diamond bid (eurghh), W should probably bid 3H esp at MPs, since a 5-1♥ fit might be the only making game (or 3♥ the only making part if E wants to pass) opposite a minimum, and if both red games are making it'll score better anyway.

Then you probably end in 6Hs. Not ideal, but more MPs than going off in 6♣.

[whereagles]

Echoing Cyber here. 5♦ (instead of 5♣) would be better. The club suit is not that hot opposite the known 5-5 in pard.

[billw55]

It looks like west doesn't trust his partner, or else is just handhogging.

[aguahombre]

Regardless of how we feel about the bidding up to and including 6C, whichever of you was West and didn't bid 6D is to blame for the contract of 6C. Maybe on another day, West' guess to play in the 7-1 fit vs. the 5-3 known fit would have been successful. Today it is too blame.

Edit: Since the point where West removes 6C to 6D is the first time East actually knows about the Diamond fit, East might well carry on to 7D. But, that doesn't change the blame for being in 6C.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2014-September-09, 09:33

[campboy]

Jinksy, on 2014-September-09, 04:46, said:

I don't agree with the second part (of Helene's post, which I was too slow to be underneath). I think here-

1♣ 1♥
2♣ 2♦
3♣ 3♦

3♦ is still forcing. Otherwise what's responder supposed to do on this type of hand (or a more mundane 2551 shape)?

Bid 3♦ on the second round, as in OP. So you have two possible auctions which show 5-5 shape; one of them is GF and the other one not. I play them the other way round FWIW, but this way seems ok too.

Anyway, the point is that either bidding 3♦ straight away (if natural) or 2♦ followed by 3♦ ought to show 5-5; with 5-4 GF you would just bid 2♦ and then probably 3♠. So East can bid 4♥ (instead of 4♦) to show 6-5. But West should support diamonds either way.

[Jinksy]

campboy, on 2014-September-09, 09:24, said:

Bid 3♦ on the second round, as in OP. So you have two possible auctions which show 5-5 shape; one of them is GF and the other one not. I play them the other way round FWIW, but this way seems ok too.

As wank said, most people (or at least the balance) play the jump shift as a splinter for ♣s.

[eagles123]

thx folks

first point pls i dont play some of this stuff by choice lol

surprise surprise I was west and as I said my original feeling was 100 % blame to me.
the reasons for my later doubt are
- I havent opened 5c so i cant really just have a string of clubs and out
- I did look for 3n
- I effectively denied good spade cards so surely have something in one of his suits
- could he not be 3541 with 3 bad spades
- why not bid 5h over 5c (surely forcing)
I think i just over analyzed

Eagles

[rmnka447]

I'm dinging West 100% for not supporting partner with a 5 ♦ bid.

East has shown at least a 5-5 hand and West has 3 card support with a big card in the stiff ♥ K.

East also has a choice in how to bid the hand. East can treat the hand as a 5-5 hand as in the actual auction. OR, East could treat the hand as a 6-4 hand and rebid 4 ♥ instead of 4 ♦.

Bidding 4 ♥ you might lose a 5-3 diamond fit. If East can bring 4 ♥ home when opener passes 4♥, especially at matchpoints, it should be a good result because 4 ♥ making beats 5 ♦ making. If as likely on this auction, West bids 5 ♣ over 4 ♥, then East can bid 5 ♦ revealing the 6-5 hand and West gets a choice of contracts.

[billw55]

Quote

- I effectively denied good spade cards so surely have something in one of his suits

Perhaps true. But partner should not have to guess which one.