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Old chestnut

#1 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2005-February-16, 23:06

Assume BWS, 2/1, sayc

1Minor=1h(opp)=1s(you)


1s=4+spades?
1s=5+spades?

What is the standard default world class meaning of 1S here in a pick up game?
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#2 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2005-February-17, 00:29

The standard (unfortunately) is 5.
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#3 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2005-February-17, 04:02

I don't think it's "unfortunate". It's just a way to play it.
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#4 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2005-February-17, 05:05

The standard default world class meaning is 4S. The standard default meaning is 5S.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#5 User is offline   Gerben47 

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Posted 2005-February-17, 05:16

The standard standard meaning is 5+♠, the usual agreement for top pairs is 4+♠.
The standard 'mad scientist' meaning is:

Dbl = 4+♠
1♠ = Unsuitable for 1NT and no 4♠
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#6 User is offline   epeeist 

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Posted 2005-February-17, 06:25

Gerben47, on Feb 17 2005, 06:16 AM, said:

The standard standard meaning is 5+♠, the usual agreement for top pairs is 4+♠.
The standard 'mad scientist' meaning is:

Dbl = 4+♠
1♠ = Unsuitable for 1NT and no 4♠

If I understood the original situation, it was one in which your partner opens one of a minor, the intervening opponent overcalls one heart, and you bid one spade.

I'm unqualified to speculate on how world-class players treat this. My intermediate understanding of SAYC, however, is that one-level overcalls even with interference only show 4+ cards in the suit. Not 5+.

See e.g. the SAYC system description:

http://www.acbl.org/documentlibrary/play/S...gle%20pages.pdf

"Bids mean the same things they meant without the intervening bid" (p. 7, competitive bidding). Thus to my understanding the one spade bid shows only 4+ spades. If, of course, we're speaking of strict SAYC.

I'm happy to be corrected if my understanding is incorrect. Since that would mean that, in this one respect at least, I've been bidding at a world-class level... :)
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#7 User is offline   hotShot 

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Posted 2005-February-17, 06:36

We play:

dbl = 4♠
1♠ = 5+♠

This way opener knows if we have a ♠ fit.
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#8 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2005-February-17, 06:44

No, 1♠ shows a 5-card, double shows a 4-card. See page 7 (Negative double).

Btw, what does the Mad Scientist do when 1♣ is overcalled with 1♦?
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#9 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2005-February-17, 06:47

helene_t, on Feb 17 2005, 01:44 PM, said:

Btw, what does the Mad Scientist do when 1♣ is overcalled with 1♦?

Dbl = 4+♥
1♥ = 4+♠
1♠ = not suitable for 1NT and no 4 card M
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#10 User is offline   flytoox 

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Posted 2005-February-17, 07:07

The_Hog, on Feb 17 2005, 11:05 AM, said:

The standard default world class meaning is 4S. The standard default meaning is 5S.

How do you define world class? I think in BWS, 1s=5 is default. You can play 1s=4+, but that is another thing.
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#11 User is offline   epeeist 

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Posted 2005-February-17, 07:36

helene_t, on Feb 17 2005, 07:44 AM, said:

No, 1♠ shows a 5-card, double shows a 4-card. See page 7 (Negative double).

Btw, what does the Mad Scientist do when 1♣ is overcalled with 1♦?

Yes, of course you're right, it even gives exactly this example.
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#12 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2005-February-17, 15:34

flytoox, on Feb 17 2005, 11:07 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Feb 17 2005, 11:05 AM, said:

The standard default world class meaning is 4S. The standard default meaning is 5S.

How do you define world class? I think in BWS, 1s=5 is default. You can play 1s=4+, but that is another thing.

By looking at what the top Poles and Italians play.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#13 User is offline   flytoox 

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Posted 2005-February-17, 16:59

The_Hog, on Feb 17 2005, 09:34 PM, said:

flytoox, on Feb 17 2005, 11:07 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Feb 17 2005, 11:05 AM, said:

The standard default world class meaning is 4S. The standard default meaning is 5S.

How do you define world class? I think in BWS, 1s=5 is default. You can play 1s=4+, but that is another thing.

By looking at what the top Poles and Italians play.

THere are many other world class players play it the other way.
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#14 User is offline   keylime 

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  Posted 2005-February-17, 18:12

With us:

1♦ (1♥) 1♠ = 4 or more spades <double is denying four spades, minor oriented)
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#15 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2005-February-17, 21:04

flytoox, on Feb 18 2005, 08:59 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Feb 17 2005, 09:34 PM, said:

flytoox, on Feb 17 2005, 11:07 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Feb 17 2005, 11:05 AM, said:

The standard default world class meaning is 4S. The standard default meaning is 5S.

How do you define world class? I think in BWS, 1s=5 is default. You can play 1s=4+, but that is another thing.

By looking at what the top Poles and Italians play.

THere are many other world class players play it the other way.

Fly the question was "standard expert default".
No doubt there are many world class players who play it the other way, so what?
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#16 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2005-February-17, 22:47

Ron -

For the people who play 1m-1H-1S as 4+, what does 1m-1H-X mean?

Peter
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#17 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2005-February-17, 23:36

pbleighton, on Feb 18 2005, 12:47 AM, said:

Ron -

For the people who play 1m-1H-1S as 4+, what does 1m-1H-X mean?

Peter

Just what it sounds like.. takeout, but here, shows the other minor, and often mild support of opener minor.
--Ben--

#18 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2005-February-17, 23:49

"Just what it sounds like.. takeout, but here, shows the other minor, and often mild support of opener minor. "

A double which denies the unbid major doesn't sound like "takeout" to me.

Not that I think you are wrong as to the facts - I just think "takeout" is a bit misleading.

Peter
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#19 User is offline   EricK 

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Posted 2005-February-18, 00:03

pbleighton, on Feb 18 2005, 05:49 AM, said:

"Just what it sounds like.. takeout, but here, shows the other minor, and often mild support of opener minor. "

A double which denies the unbid major doesn't sound like "takeout" to me.

Not that I think you are wrong as to the facts - I just think "takeout" is a bit misleading.

Peter

What is the word for "I have to bid but have no good bid to make, therefore I'll double"?

Because that is exactly the sort of double this is.

Eric
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#20 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2005-February-18, 01:17

pbleighton, on Feb 18 2005, 02:47 PM, said:

Ron -

For the people who play 1m-1H-1S as 4+, what does 1m-1H-X mean?

Peter

Hi Peter,
Exactly what Ben's reply stated.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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