[hirowla]

Hi, I was wondering what modifications do you need to basic 2/1 to include a weak NT rather than a strong NT? I live in a world of weak NT bidders and have actually grown to like it!

One obvious one I can think about is after an auction of 1♥/1♠ - 1NT, what does a 2NT rebid mean (15-17 or 18-19)? I don't have an answer to that.

Any hints would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Ian

[DJNeill]

hirowla, on 2014-June-15, 21:25, said:

Hi, I was wondering what modifications do you need to basic 2/1 to include a weak NT rather than a strong NT? I live in a world of weak NT bidders and have actually grown to like it!

One obvious one I can think about is after an auction of 1♥/1♠ - 1NT, what does a 2NT rebid mean (15-17 or 18-19)? I don't have an answer to that.

Any hints would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Ian

See Kokish/Kraft at http://www.bridgewithdan.com/systems/

[helene_t]

If you don't systematically open 1NT with a five card major it doesn't affect the major suit openings but in any case the 2nt rebid is 18-19. As djneil suggests you can play kokish after a wide ranging (12-17) 1NT rebid.

The 1di opening is more tricky. In Acol the 4441 hands are opened 1he to avoid a rebid problem but you probably don't want to do that.

[Mbodell]

2nt is 17+-19 typically. With 12-14 open 1nt much of the time (if you want to sometimes open 1M, definitely play semi-forcing NT instead of forcing). With 15-16/bad17 open 1M and rebid 2m over 1nt. This is what strong NT players who don't open with 5 card majors end up doing anyways.

4441 hands aren't too bad if you just open 1♦ (except when the stiff is in diamonds, then open 1♣) and then you can raise the 4 card major if partner bids it. If you have a stiff heart and partner bids that you have an easy 1♠. The only bad one is if you have a stiff spade and partner bids that. You can solve that by opening 1nt or rebidding 1nt with 1=4=4=4 when in range with a stiff good honor, and bidding 1♦-1♠-2♣ otherwise. Partner will expect 54 in the minors, but occasionally you'll be 44. You may even be able to rebid hearts if you are non-minimum and the auction goes 1♦-1♠-2♣-2♦-2♥ (you can decide if that should be FSF or natural, since most people would play 2♣ is passable, it might not make sense to now force to game opposite a simple preference by partner).

[helene_t]

Well it is worse if partner bids 2♣. I suppose you rebid 2♦ which is forcing for one round only. You may then end up in a somewhat ambitious 2NT contract. But I think that is better than opening 1NT. Probably something better can be achieved with artificial responses to 1♦ though.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

it was already mentioned to some extend.

If you switch to a weak NT, you should consider changing your system after the 1NT rebid.
NMF works reasonably well after a 15-17, but looses its effectivness after 12-14.
The reason: NMF tries to find a sensible resting place on the 2level, when the partnership
has at most half of the deck. This is sensible, if opener announced 12-14, but when he
announced 15-17 facing a partner with 6+ is no longer to priority.

Going down that road may well lead to a wide range 1 NT rebid, but of course this is not a
given.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

P_Marlowe, on 2014-June-16, 04:49, said:

Hi,

it was already mentioned to some extend.

If you switch to a weak NT, you should consider changing your system after the 1NT rebid.
NMF works reasonably well after a 15-17, but looses its effectivness after 12-14.
The reason: NMF tries to find a sensible resting place on the 2level, when the partnership
has at most half of the deck. This is sensible, if opener announced 12-14, but when he
announced 15-17 facing a partner with 6+ is no longer to priority.

Going down that road may well lead to a wide range 1 NT rebid, but of course this is not a
given.

With kind regards
Marlowe

One of the bits of weak NT system I most like is the wide range 1N rebid which we take to extremes as 15-bad 19 fitting seamlessly against our good 19-21 2N. We play Crowhurst over the 1N rebid and this allows us to play a GF unbalanced artificial 2N rebid, which sorts out a number of the awkward strong hands that aren't a 2♣ opener but are GF once you hear a response. This has the side effect of limiting bids like 1♦-1M-3♦.

[Mbodell]

P_Marlowe, on 2014-June-16, 04:49, said:

If you switch to a weak NT, you should consider changing your system after the 1NT rebid.
NMF works reasonably well after a 15-17, but looses its effectivness after 12-14.
The reason: NMF tries to find a sensible resting place on the 2level, when the partnership
has at most half of the deck. This is sensible, if opener announced 12-14, but when he
announced 15-17 facing a partner with 6+ is no longer to priority.

I'm not sure this is accurate, in my view, at least considering 2-way NMF. I find people stretch even more to respond to 1-minor when playing weak nt "knowing" that partner often has the strong nt. And using (2 way) NMF you can have good invitational sequences, which happen a fair bit opposite strong nt, and end up at the 2-level when not accepting. And having the 2♦ for game forces and the 2♣-2♦-3nt for CoG also works well.

You give up on playing 2♣ natural, but that is a small price to pay IMO since the opponents rarely let you play 2♣ with a good long fit, and without a good long fit 1nt likely plays/scores better anyways.

[steve2005]

1N rebid 12-16 at least over 1♥ with 2♣ Crowhurst. Over a minor you can still use 12-16 but 15-16 or 15-17 easier

2-way NMF ok if your using XYZ style so can signoff in 2D, but in Crowhurst you can force or INV so you can still have 2D NF. Of course XYZ greatly increases the number of hands you can show

2N rebid 17-19 over 1M or over a minor if using 12-16 or 15-16 1N rebids

2N rebid after a 2/1 shows extra values (good 14+) and stoppers, 2M rebid could be a 5-carder and usually shows min values

[P_Marlowe]

Mbodell, on 2014-June-16, 13:48, said:

I'm not sure this is accurate, in my view, at least considering 2-way NMF. I find people stretch even more to respond to 1-minor when playing weak nt "knowing" that partner often has the strong nt. And using (2 way) NMF you can have good invitational sequences, which happen a fair bit opposite strong nt, and end up at the 2-level when not accepting. And having the 2♦ for game forces and the 2♣-2♦-3nt for CoG also works well.

You give up on playing 2♣ natural, but that is a small price to pay IMO since the opponents rarely let you play 2♣ with a good long fit, and without a good long fit 1nt likely plays/scores better anyways.

I dont know 2-way NMF, but my comment was targeted at the simpler version.
Actually the only thing I wanted to say / point out is, that you need to check your methods after the NT rebid, and see / verify, that the system focuses more on reaching the correct game, than staying particular low.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-June-16, 05:39, said:

One of the bits of weak NT system I most like is the wide range 1N rebid which we take to extremes as 15-bad 19 fitting seamlessly against our good 19-21 2N. We play Crowhurst over the 1N rebid and this allows us to play a GF unbalanced artificial 2N rebid, which sorts out a number of the awkward strong hands that aren't a 2♣ opener but are GF once you hear a response. This has the side effect of limiting bids like 1♦-1M-3♦.

We also play the 1NT rebid as showing 14+ - 19, freeing up the 2NT response.
Another advantage is, that responding with sub. min values wont risk a 2NT rebid by
responder.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[hrothgar]

Need to drop support doubles

[Cthulhu D]

helene_t, on 2014-June-16, 04:18, said:

Well it is worse if partner bids 2♣. I suppose you rebid 2♦ which is forcing for one round only. You may then end up in a somewhat ambitious 2NT contract. But I think that is better than opening 1NT. Probably something better can be achieved with artificial responses to 1♦ though.

Been plagin g 2/1 with a variable NT for a while, and this definitely works best with a short club. Then you don't have the awful sequences after 1D because you can play 1D-1S-1NT as 4 hearts.

Agree with Hrothgar that support doubles have to go.

[mycroft]

The biggest question about switching is not what to do after the NT, or even the NT rebid, it's what does a 1m opener show?

The world coming from Acol has one idea (and I don't know how it's playable, but I do know I'd hate to play against it); the world coming from K/S has another (which is the one I understand). Yes, I've passed controlless unbalanced 13s (especially in the ACBL where I'm sure I won't get away with 1NT). Usually I either recover or gain something on the surprise on defence. But my minor openings are "sound or overstrength preempts" (11 or 12 with a clearly rebiddable suit; or "usually" 15 counting distribution points assuming no misfit).

This changes a *lot* in the further auction - for one thing, we "cheat respond" on some weak hands, "knowing" that partner is going to rebid 1NT and get us back to the field. For another, the killer weak NT auction is when fourth hand bids (whatever she bids); knowing at least that partner won't take you for an indifferent 5431 really helps. For a third, unless you can show it, as said above, you need to use the "support double" for "I have a strong NT I can't bid any more" as opposed to the strong NT you can bid and the moderate hand short in their suit you can pass.

There are so many auctions where you're ahead after the weak NT in a strong NT field. There are several auctions you're way behind. Not so sure how much of my concerns apply when the field is opening what you do with 12-17 balanced.

[akwoo]

There are periodic threads on this, so you may want to look back.

When I played weak NT with 2/1 I played K/S like, though my 1m openings were a tad weaker than mycroft's (but not as weak as some you would see playing with a strong NT).

1) You almost never want to play in 2 of a minor opposite a 1N rebid showing 15-17 by opener, so you might as well play 2-way NMF.

2) I played a 1M rebid by opener as promising an unbalanced hand, so you DO want to be able to play in 2 of opener's minor. This means XYZ is NOT a good idea.

3) Contrary to other posters, I think support doubles are playable. Here's the general problem. You have 3 types of hands to show with the 2 calls of pass and double: (a) 15+ balanced with no stopper, (b) 5431 with 3 in partner's suit, © 5431 with singleton in partner's suit (and hence 3 or 4 in opp's). I think (a) and © are more alike than (b) and ©. (Many (a) hands can make the support double too.) (1N included 5422 with 5 in a minor.)

4) It's really important that responder understands in competition that opener has shown an unbalanced hand or 15+ when opening 1m. In my opinion, if responder doesn't know how to take advantage of this, it's not worth playing weak NT. If you just want the gains from opening 1N more frequently, you might as well play mini NT. The point of weak NT is that you gain some from the frequency of 1N and some from the inferences of 1m.

5) Consider playing non-forcing free bids, around 7-11 at the 2 level and 9-12 at the 3 level (or you can also play non-forcing at the 2 level and forcing at the 3 level).

[mike777]

hirowla, on 2014-June-15, 21:25, said:

Hi, I was wondering what modifications do you need to basic 2/1 to include a weak NT rather than a strong NT? I live in a world of weak NT bidders and have actually grown to like it!

One obvious one I can think about is after an auction of 1♥/1♠ - 1NT, what does a 2NT rebid mean (15-17 or 18-19)? I don't have an answer to that.

Any hints would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Ian

The problem with playing a wk nt at the top levels per Chip Martel is that fewer and fewer players play it. That means there is less and less innovation with weak nt compared to years ago.

Per Chip we live in an age where there is more innovation, many many more top players looking to innovate with strong nt compared to wk nt.

Of course quantity need not mean quality but still....

Chip's main point was his strong belief that there was more innovation devoted to strong nt than wk nt at the top level, today.

btw for those who may not be aware Chip Martel is one of the greatest weak no trump players of all time.

[hirowla]

Hi everyone, thanks for your replies - it has been appreciated. So to clarify some things:

• Somebody suggested not playing support doubles. Done - don't play them anyway! Well, except with the BBO robots.
  
• At the moment I play a weak NT but everything else is "standard". In my community ACOL is the standard so I just say ACOL with 5 card majors - a better description is "Standard with a weak NT". I use a 15-18 point 1NT rebid, and use Checkback Stayman rather than NMF - seems to work.
  
• I sometimes include a 5 card major in the opening NT. Is the suggestion that if I do this, to make the 1NT semi-forcing rather than forcing? I can see the advantages - I hate the sequence 1H - 2C - 2H when I have a 5 card minimum hearts hand. If it's a game force it doesn't matter but I can always pass a 1NT response. Still have the awkward 1H - 1S - 2H auction although I have seen that reversing the 1S and 1NT responses can help with that.
  
• I like the inference of the minor bids showing extra length or extra strength, which is why I like the weak NT. I have the major rebids in the previous point, and people interfering when I have the strong NT!
  
• It is unlikely I'll be playing at the top level any time soon - unless somebody wants to mentor me

So in terms of the auctions I'm worried about:

• 1x - 1NT - ? when I have the strong NT. Just rebid 2NT if I have the 15-18, just bid 3NT (or some 3 level forcing bid) if I have the 19-20 point hand (I have other tools for bigger hands)?
  
• 1x - 2y - 2NT can show 15-18 points and if I'm strong it doesn't matter (as we are in a game force).

Thanks,

Ian

[gwnn]

You should look into playing gazilli after 1M-1NT or 1H-1S. Even something very very simple like making the 2C rebid as natural or 15-17 and responder bidding 2D if they have 8+ or bid something else with 5-7 can get you a long way but you can of course put in all the powerhouses in the 2C rebid too. You can manage to avoid the problem for 1C by making 1NT 8-10 (or 5-7 I guess) and putting 5-7 (or 8-10) in 1D or a non forcing raise to 2C. Of course transfers can help you out as well (1C-1S could be diamonds or weak balanced maybe).. After 1D things are not so bright. You can try to avoid it by replying with an occasional 3-card major, or making 2C 8+ (maybe with 2D non-forcing from opener), or have opener stretch/guess over a 6-10 1NT, or some combination. You should also consider getting the strong NT's out of 1D but I'm not a fan of the pure unbalanced diamond as you end up not opening it too much.

I don't know if Mexican 2D (promising 18-19 balanced) can help you at all, my guess is not, but I've listed a bunch of conventions here so what's the harm.

[gordontd]

hirowla, on 2014-June-18, 23:30, said:

• 1x - 1NT - ? when I have the strong NT. Just rebid 2NT if I have the 15-18, just bid 3NT (or some 3 level forcing bid) if I have the 19-20 point hand (I have other tools for bigger hands)?
  
• 1x - 2y - 2NT can show 15-18 points and if I'm strong it doesn't matter (as we are in a game force).

You don't want to be raising to 2NT with 15 or 16, opposite what may be a five-count.
Rebidding 2NT after a 2/1 with a wide range (rather than a split range) is not without danger, since neither partner will have enough extras to know that it's safe to continue over 3NT.

[helene_t]

gwnn, on 2014-June-19, 00:24, said:

You should look into playing gazilli after 1M-1NT or 1H-1S.

gordontd, on 2014-June-19, 01:47, said:

You don't want to be raising to 2NT with 15 or 16, opposite what may be a five-count.

This. Playing weak nt you need a way to deal with the 16-counts. You don't want to end up in 2NT too often and you certainly don't want to jump to 2NT before you know whether you have a fit since you might not have the safely level to explore the fit.

Playing agricultural methods with a 2m rebid on a 3-card suit followed by 2NT in the 3rd round is playable, but Gazilli is better.