[diana_eva]

Star partner, 2/1 vanilla, no fancy agreements. What now?

---

There's a story to this hand but let's start here. Sound openings so you'd probably want to be in game.

[the hog]

Double, what else?

[hrothgar]

the hog, on 2014-May-20, 18:06, said:

Double, what else?

Double doesn't make sense to me. You're pretty much going to have to pull any spade bid to clubs. If you want to go this route, might as well just show support to begin with.

Personally, I favor an imperfect 3NT.

[neilkaz]

There is something called a Thrump Double. I think it may be a Bergen invention.

http://www.bridgeguy...ump_double.html

[the hog]

hrothgar, on 2014-May-20, 18:14, said:

Double doesn't make sense to me. You're pretty much going to have to pull any spade bid to clubs. If you want to go this route, might as well just show support to begin with.

Personally, I favor an imperfect 3NT.

Apart from losing the first 7 heart tricks................................................

[MrAce]

I think we are doomed to bid 4♣. But if I have to choose between double and 3 nt, I would probably go with 3 NT.

Say we doubled and saw the very likely spade response from pd as Richard said, we will have to go back to clubs, even worse, this time I am not even sure if 5♣ will be to play necessarily.

[Antrax]

Can't I double and pull spades to NT?

[gszes]

double

seems to be the way to start because it offers a flexibility to a less than
perfect game forcing type hand. For those "thinking" about bidding 3n all I
can say is it must be nice to live such a jaded life where p always has the
stoppers you fail to provide and as long as you are being lucky there are no
wrong siding issues either. Starting with x If we hear 3s and then bid
3n (antrax) this shows doubt about 3n as a final contract (else why double
if I have no interest in spades) if p bid 3n we are fine with that and if
for some reason p passes the penalty will probably be around 500 so no huge
loss.

If p bids 4s your 5c continuation should be to play. If p bids 4d we can bid
5d. If p bids 4c the only real problem is should we continue to 5c and I have
to admit I would probably pass since we know p has 3 spades or less so there
is a strong probability we have 2 heart losers and at least 1 side suit loser
though many will bid game merely just because------------------------

[hrothgar]

the hog, on 2014-May-20, 19:14, said:

Apart from losing the first 7 heart tricks................................................

***** happens

Seriously, you know as well as I do that that this is a game of percentages...

It's entirely possibility that bidding 3NT ends up in a bad contract.
However, I think that its even more likely that a double leads to 5m -1 when 3N was making.

[helene_t]

MrAce, on 2014-May-20, 20:29, said:

Say we doubled and saw the very likely spade response from pd as Richard said, we will have to go back to clubs, even worse, this time I am not even sure if 5♣ will be to play necessarily.

Good that you and Richard agree about not doubling. I hope Diana and I agree that a double followed by any number of clubs would be natural

Seriously, double doesn't show spades so if partner bids spades we are still to find our fit. So 4♣ or 4♦ has to be natural.

It is important to agree if partner's 3♠ and/or our 4♣ would be forcing. Anyway, I think I just bid 5♣ if partner bids 3♠.

[kenberg]

My initial reaction was "i haven't a clue". I appreciate seeing the view that doubling and then pulling 3♠ to something is a way of saying "I have values but I am not sure where this should be played". Of course if partner has AKJT / xxx ' xxx / AQx maybe you want to play it in 4♠ and hope for a 4-3 split. Or maybe in 3NT and hope W has a stiff A or K in hearts. It wouldn't surprise me at all if no game is making. In 5m, the opponents are quite likely taking the first two hearts. I can take the rest? Maybe, maybe not.

Anyway I like the idea that X followed by a pull of 3♠ or for that matter a pull of 4♠ shows a good hand w/o much in the way of spades. And then maybe, as Antrax notes, X and then 3NT is the way to go: "I have good values, I don't have all that much in spades, I can't really on my own just bid 3NT over 3♥, take your best shot pard". Could be. I couold send that message. Whether partner would read it that way is another matter entirely.

[wank]

double and pull spades to nt or clubs depending how many he bids.

hopefully though partner will float the double.

[whereagles]

I bid 3NT on a very confident tone... if I do the trick well, maybe LHO will try his luck with a spade.

that or pard has ♥Jxx

[diana_eva]

OK so this was not an obvious one. I thought it was tough too at the table, where I was defending and my opps faced this problem.

Here's the full deal:

---

Opps got into a fight, South convinced that his X doesn't necessarily mean spades, and is looking for 3NT, while North got upset that pd passed him in a 4-2 fit. South then insisted to convince me that he was right and his pd messed up. So here I came to post the hand and figure out just how clear it was how to go about it.

[helene_t]

Obviously South knew that 4♠ wasn't the right contract but I can sorta understand. Partner's 4♠ bid suggests that he didn't take 4♣ as a natural bid so trying to correct to 5♣ would be futile. At least 4♠ hasn't been doubled yet. He might have hoped that W would double, when South then afterwards runs to 5♣, North will understand ....

[diana_eva]

helene_t, on 2014-May-21, 08:35, said:

Obviously South knew that 4♠ wasn't the right contract but I can sorta understand. Partner's 4♠ bid suggests that he didn't take 4♣ as a natural bid so trying to correct to 5♣ would be futile. At least 4♠ hasn't been doubled yet. He might have hoped that W would double, when South then afterwards runs to 5♣, North will understand ....

Yeah, I can see myself perpetrating an auction like that TBH, but I'd surely keep very quiet ever after LOL

[helene_t]

3NT by North looks like an interesting contract by the way, assuming that you don't get a heart lead (also an interesting lead problem).

[Fluffy]

I think double is obvious, partner will only bid 3♠ with a balanced hand and we can bid 3NT over it.

If partner bids 4♠ he is ujnbalanced and we belong to clubs.

[hotShot]

---

I still have sympathy for a 3NT guess by South. Down one DD seems not to bad.

[whereagles]

Down one? West has an obvious spade lead, unbid major